3 years of study, Just found out!

by impala63rag 137 Replies latest jw friends

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  impala63rag

  Ok, finally just met with them since finding out about all this. He was sick the 2 previous times we were supposed to study. It's been a week and a half since this discovery. We mainly discussed dis-fellowshipping since that was first on my priority of wanting some information on.

  Here's what they said:

  They gave me a scenario where "WHAT IF" She had an affair with someone, and he had walked in on them. That he would probably need some time to think about their relationship. When he was to return it would be with forgiveness.

  They also said that it was the congregation’s way of disciplining. That so many churches have members that sin on Saturday and attend church on Sunday. That it was hypocritical. If the congregation didn’t do anything it would be like telling everyone that it would be ok to do those things.

  We also read a scripture, Matthew 15-17. 15, “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16, But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. 17, if he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.

  I asked if they believed that the Watchtower was the word of God. They said no, that it is inspired by God because it is based on scripture, but that they do not speak for God.

  I asked about the excerpt from the Watchtower last week that I had mentioned before in this forum. They said that it is in no way referring to dis-fellowshipping, that the comments about social media, texting, hobbies and sporting events was in no way telling people what they should do but to just be cautious of letting things cause distance from yourself and the congregation.

  They also said that anyone dis-fellowshipped can return to the congregation anytime they want as long as they turn away from sin.

  I don't know what to think anymore, it made sense.
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  SloppyJoe

  They cannot just return to the congregation as the elders decide on how long a person remains disfellowshipped. For instance if you confessed to fornication and are disfellowshipped and never do that sin again the elders may reinstate you, meaning people can talk to you again in six, nine, twelve months or whatever they deem. The shortest I have personally seen is nine months. As far as the verses read to you they do not follow that procedure for what they consider serious sins. The elders will always form a judicial committee for what they consider serious sins even if as the scripture says the person listens.

  A very serious sin is disagreeing publicly with the organization or some doctrine. You will be disfellowshipped for those reasons. If you think that disfellowshipping is fine than so be it. But I will run another scenario by you. A child raised a witness gets baptized at 14 and at 16 likes a boy. They mess around and commit pornea by watchtower standard definition and are both disfellowshipped. At 16 they can no longer speak to anyone they know.

  or at the same age they start researching and discover things they don't believe in. If they vocalize these to the elders the child will be disfellowshipped at 16 or whatever age they are at the time. They are forced to profess they believe JW doctrine to ever be reinstated to be able to talk to the people they know again.
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  Apognophos

  I don't think there would be anything objectionable about removing someone's name from the list of the congregation's members if they were openly going against the standards of the religion.

  However, besides the issues SloppyJoe brought out about the practice of disfellowshipping (we often write it here as "DFing", but JWs never abbreviate it, that's just a habit here on JWN), it's important to note that DFed ones are not treated like 'a man of the nations'. JWs will ignore the very presence of a DFed one, or only speak a couple words to them at most, unless they're family, in which case the actual treatment of the DFed one will privately vary in severity based on the family's own strictness. In some cases the DFed one will be ignored and disowned by their own family as well, as you should have seen if you've been reading many threads here. JWs go door to door talking to strangers every day, including ones who disagree with their beliefs openly, so why are DFed ones treated like non-persons?

  Secondly, if a JW decides to leave because he objects to the doctrine, he is either DFed or considered to be disassociated (DAed), and in both cases he once again cannot be talked to. Keep in mind that the stated purpose of DFing is to discipline someone so they will want to return. So why, if the ex-JW has openly stated that he will not return and does not agree with the shunning's basis, is he still shunned?

  The answer to both these questions is that DFing was instituted to control information. It sounds paranoid at first, but the fact is that speakers at conventions have openly stated that talking to an apostate can ruin your faith and thus should be avoided. What happens is that a DFed one is treated like an apostate, whether he is one or not, in order to minimize the chance that he will say something to damage an active JW's faith.

  The question this begs is, "How could someone 'destroy' your faith unless your faith is not solidly based on facts?" Witnesses live in a self-maintained bubble, in fear that someone 'knows too much' about their faith from having been on the inside at one time. This fear of insider information should be a big red flag to anyone studying with JWs who thinks they seem like a healthy, reasonable group of people.
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  Apognophos

  It's also important to note that, although the JW gave you the official answer about the Watchtower publications not being the word of God, you can't let a JW tell you what they're about (they'll also tell you that they're the most loving people on earth even though they don't do a whit of charitable work). You have to observe what the Witnesses do, not what they say about themselves. Because you have not spent much time at the meetings, you've been in a controlled environment managed by your study conductor which is not representative of actual Witness practices.

  In practice, the Society's publications are accepted as a greater authority than the Bible. Ask your conductor what would happen if someone in the congregation had a different interpretation of a scripture and was telling other JWs about it. A JW who does this would be immediately treated (informally) as an apostate, and at least publicly reproved; if he persisted in talking about a different interpretation, he would be DFed and marked as an apostate. Note that this is not a disfellowshipping for any moral reason, but simply for disagreeing, even if it's regarding an abstract concept that makes little difference in actual worship, like whether the number 144,000 is literal or figurative in Revelation.

  See, the Society tries to have it both ways -- they will acknowledge that they can make mistakes, since they are only men. And this sounds reasonable and humble. But they will not brook any public disagreement with their teachings from any member, because they expect to be followed as if they are God's mouthpiece, even when they are wrong. They truly believe that everlasting life cannot be attained without following God's spirit-directed channel of information: themselves.
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  Gentledawn

  We also read a scripture, Matthew 15-17. 15, “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16, But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. 17, if he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.

  Disfellowshipped ones are not the only ones shunned. They (rank & file members) will shun people who have "poor" meeting attendance. They stop calling. They don't come to their homes. No one inquires about their health or anything else.

  The elders will directly tell rank and file members that they (the elders) alone will handle speaking to that person (1st hand knowledge). The "congregation" in that scripture is the elder body, more simply, the judicial committee (JC) that is formed to hound that unfortunate person. The whole of the congregation does NOT know the half of what goes on as far as individuals being disciplined goes. They are kept ignorant to many things, including when active and untreated pedophiles are in their midst. Most JWs don't know about the Candice Conti case, nor the Gordon Leighton one, and countless others.

  Read up on the Gordon Leighton case. It's the one that woke me up. Here you have a confessed pedophile, who was simply reproved (NOT disfellowshipped) for what he did to another couples child. He confessed to the elders, but it was never reported to the police by them. The victims were told it had been "handled". Fast forward, and it goes to court. The court deliberated while the 3 elders from the congregation held off telling the court about the man's confession, claiming "clergy-laity" privilege (a lie. Remember, there are no clergy in JW). It goes on for 3 (three!) years, with the elders standing alongside this disfellowshipped, confessed (guilty) pedophile. Meanwhile, the pedo himself was LYING to the court, too.

  Lies, obfuscation, wasting everyone's time and valuable resources, all to protect one man... one man who was NOT innocent of the crimes he was being charged to begin with. He was found guilty when the elders were finally forced to turn over the confession.

  • Were the elders serving the interest of that man's victim(s)?

  • Why did they (the elders) make a stand alongside a known pedophile, especially one who was standing in court lying to everyone present about what really happened? They (the 3 elders) knew he was guilty. They knew he was lying (ten commandments much?). They lied, too (ditto). Oh, and he was also disfellowshipped at the time. He was DFed for "violence" after he was reproved for child molestation.

  And yet, if you were to miss meetings and not go out in field service? Shuns-ville for you!
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  sleepingbeauty2

  They also said that anyone dis-fellowshipped can return to the congregation anytime they want as long as they turn away from sin.

  A sister I know locally has very recently been disfellowshipped due to a male work colleague sleeping over on her settee overnight. Her son was present & nothing happened. There is absolutely no romantic interests between them & never will be... But since he was seen leaving her property by local JW's she has been disfellowshipped. She appealed twice during a Judicial Committee to not Disfellowship her, but they rejected her pleas for forgiveness & felt that if they didn't disfellowship her, then the other brothers & sisters would be offended that no action was taken... !!!

  So neither her mother or father can speak to her, yet they only live a few doors away from her... All the other JW's in her street completely blank her, like she is a figment of there imagination. She hasn't done anything wrong, yet they are treating her with disdain & like she is a harlot who is disgusting in her filth....

  She is absolutely distraught. She has an incredibly close bond with her mom, who she considered her best friend & now her mother & every single friend or family member has cut her off...

  She simply can't understand what she did that was sooo bad & that even though she was incredibly apologetic, it meant nothing to them... She has been cast aside.. Never to be acknowledged or spoken to until they deem her fit enough to reinstate. She would have to go back to the meetings for 12 to 18 months sitting at the back of the hall & be totally ignored. All because her congregation elders don't think she is telling the Truth & they have told her that her attitude is considered to be brazen conduct... All she did was try to defend herself by speaking up for herself...

  She has already attempted suicide once, because the trauma of all this happening is just all too much for her....

  Tell me again that they are right in the way that they disfellowship people?!
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  lisaBObeesa

  Jehovah's Witnesses do not shun a person because that person has sinned.

  JWs will continue speaking to people who they know are sinning, just as long as that person is NOT Disfellowshipped by the elders.

  Jehovah’s Witnesses DO shun a person because the elders tell them to (the elders say the person is ‘disfellowshipped.')

  'Disfellowshipped' means the person has been found by the elders, in a closed door meeting, to be guilty of not being repentant for a sin.

  The congregation is not supposed to know what the sin is that they were disfellowshipped for.

  The congregation does not know if the person SAID they were repentant but the elders didn’t believe them.

  The congregation only knows that the elders say that this person must be shunned.

  The congregation MUST completely shun this person until such a time as the elders tell them that they may speak with the person again.

  This process is not found anywhere in the Bible.

  DF people are NOT reinstated as soon as they repent.

  When a person is DF'ed, they must remain that way (completely shunned) for some period of time, usually 6 months to a year. Often times longer!

  And if the person is being shunned because they just don't want to be a member of the org anymore, they will be completely shunned by all friends and their own family forever!

  This is NOT in the Bible. This is not LOVING. This is abusive extreme punishment that cuts people off from their own families and all of their friends and support and leaves them completely alone.
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  Gentledawn

  Sleeping Beauty2 wrote:

  A sister I know locally has very recently been disfellowshipped due to a male work colleague sleeping over on her settee overnight. Her son was present & nothing happened. There is absolutely no romantic interests between them & never will be... But since he was seen leaving her property by local JW's she has been disfellowshipped. She appealed twice during a Judicial Committee to not Disfellowship her, but they rejected her pleas for forgiveness & felt that if they didn't disfellowship her, then the other brothers & sisters would be offended that no action was taken... !!!

  And the congregation will shun her based upon a blank announcement from the podium: "Brother/Sister So-and-So is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses".

  More to say further down about those "blank check" announcements:

  Here's what they said:
  
  They gave me a scenario where "WHAT IF" She had an affair with someone, and he had walked in on them. That he would probably need some time to think about their relationship. When he was to return it would be with forgiveness.
  
  They also said that it was the congregation’s way of disciplining. That so many churches have members that sin on Saturday and attend church on Sunday. That it was hypocritical. If the congregation didn’t do anything it would be like telling everyone that it would be ok to do those things.

  And if someone wants to leave the JW religion? Are they simply free to go, as they purport on JW.org? No, they cannot freely leave without consequence and DISCIPLINE... the same discipline as someone who "sinned": shunning. Treated as a non-person, non-entity. Did Jesus shun ANYONE? No. "Footstep followers of Christ", my eye.

  Write out a letter of disassociation, because you strongly disagree with their dogma, actions, sanctioned lying ("theocratic warfare", where they "allow" themselves to lie), what-have-you? Here's the annoncement made from the podium:

  "Brother/Sister so-and-so is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses".

  No differentiation between someone who commits a "sin" and one who shakes the dust of the WT teachings off their feet via DAing themselves.
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  joe134cd

  Yes on a serious note I will agree with the above 2 posts. There is certainly a lot of pressure put on you to conform. Trust me I was in it for decades so I would know. If your performance isn't up to what can be expected, then you would be seen as been spiritually weak and the holy of holies may limit there association with you. I will give you situation I am in. I have stopped going to the meetings, because of knowing the TTATT. Becuase I am reliant on other members of the congregation for my livelihood and business, I'm now in the situation of having to keep my mouth shut, as I know opening my mouth would seriously put this at risk. You can see how it's a balancing act between the two forces. Another example of the pressure to comply, with out even been disfellowshiped. I happened to say to one of my internet friends if she wondered if the society may of been having Money troubles. From just one sentence she replied that she thought it was apostate ( although I didn't ask, I would be very interested how she managed to know that the society having money troubles was apostate. But I'm guessing it was because she had also been reading it on the net as well. BTW she would probably never admit to it). There was no dialogue into weather it was true or not, or how she reached the conclusion it was apostate. It was, I was no longer going to meetings and I had made a statement and that was it. All over in less than 3 sentences. I was later told that I was been deleted because of this. Anyway this person with in the space of a couple of days has been going around informing others and hence I am now finding my self getting deleted of peoples lists. I'm sort of, in a way stewing about wondering if the resulting gossip will now reach it's way up to the elders in my cong and a JC been formed. Just imagine the shit I would be in if I mentioned Rutherford been a raging alcoholic.

  I will also add that the majority of witnesses have just got no idea (or would be interested in learning) about what WT gets up to behind their back. As far as openness and transparency with its members, WT would know the meaning of it. For example I had no idea of the scope or the magnititude of the child abuse scandel. A comment I hear often is "I'm just shocked at what I didn't know". Ultimately it is up to you weather you decide to follow,them or not. But I believe that Pharisee like religion is just bad news.
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  Faithful Witness

  Do not get baptized as a JW. Ever. Just don't do it. Ever.