by Juan Viejo2 107 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Just to let everyone know, my contact is following this thread and promises to respond or add to it when he has some time. He did not indicate whether he would be posting his response or if he would email me a response to post. Whatever happens, happens...
His only comment to me was, "Comments are good so far. I'll try to respond to any that are extreme one way or the other, but for now just watching."
Just thought you'd like to know.
JV
Impressive!
We are wittingly participating in the making of history.
Sylvia
Appointed= Anointed
Very clever...very clever indeed. The early Church had absolutely NO issues with the laying on of hands to appoint someone to a position of oversight. It was a symbolic gesture indicating that the "Lord" was behind the decision. If you take the account where Judas Iscariot was replaced, it was a simple casting of lots. Yes, one of the most important decisions in the history of the Christian Church was made with a roll of the dice!
That being the case, there is nothing that leads me to believe that a decision as important as the appointment to the GB should be made any differently. If the "laying of the hands" meant divine appointment...then why not make the "anointing" by "appointing."
Biblical precedent? The words of Jesus to Peter, "whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven..." If Peter had the authority of the keys of the Kingdom and the current GB are actually MORE IMPORTANT than Peter according to the recent Faithful and Discreet Slave interpretation, then logically, THEY can anoint with Holy Spirit just as well as the Almighty.
I actually believe that this aspect of the email may well have some merit.
SOP
I took the liberty to share the over on JWR as well.
http://www.jehovahswitnessrecovery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=19633
We too have speculated for some time that a next change would be a symbolic 144.000 as literal is no longer sustainable.
The old timers being sent away the way described is hard on certainly not Christian.
Thanks for sharing this valuable information and thanks to your friend.
Thanks for sharing this.
It seems like about once every decade or so there is a big shake up like this at HQ. My parents are good friends with a couple that was in bethel in the 80s and 90s, and after the last down sizing shakeup they were re-assigned as special pioneers. Needless to say, they are still dirt poor, and barely scraping by in their old age, and yet, they are still toiling hard as ever on the WT$ fools errand of pioneering. It's really quite sad, and this mindset that is in so many is not easily altered. Unfortunately this cultish sect is probably gonna take a few more generations to finally collapse under its own weight.
Thanks Juan and thanks to Brother X.
Interesting stuff. I think the 144,000 thing is slowly being tested/implemented IMO. You can see it in the language being used now and the absence of statements about the number being filled that were so common before. I think if the number of partakers had dropped this past year, they would have been ok to ignore the subject. With it continuing to grow as a marked trend, they have to address it in some way.
I recently pointed out the larger 'partaker' number in 2013 to my wife and another elder's wife.
The other sister defended it as, "Maybe there are spots reserved for those who live right before the end and maybe this actually means we are just that close!"
But after hearing herself, she simply said with a sigh, "But who knows, that's just all I've got"
We didn't say much - I was just floating it out there. Interesting to see people when they are forced to actually think about these things. The meetings are such robotic rah- rah sessions that never allow actual personal thought.
It is surprising about the DO's. I just found the letter on the site myself. It's funny... I'm an elder and I hear about things on this site before I see it on jw.org or hear about it from anyone on the body. Obvious the downsizing is continuing. Closed branches all over the world. Selling off of property. Retiring CO's and possibly others at 70. Now eliminating a level of management with by canning DO's. Again plainly cost-cutting, efficiency measures.
I think more will wake up from these changes. The org will prob begin shrinking in the western countries. The GB must already know that. That would be one logical explanation for all the downsizing.
I am reminded of Bono's line - The God I believe in isn't short on cash.
Hard to claim God's backing when downsizing is such an obvious priority.
"appointed = annointed" - this one is easy to beleive even now. Any brother appointed would have little trouble believing they are actually anointed by Jah already without realizing it. But ultimately, the GB is giving themselves authority to anoint men on Jehovah's behalf. - but of course they would never come out and say that, they will just cleverly let him think he really is anointed and the holy spirit has made it know by way of the appointment
144,000 becoming symbolic - ABSOLUTELY! I believe this 100% As far as becoming only men...... I have a hard time seeing this get past the 2/3's vote. This would mean a LOT of back peddling over 140 years of Watchtower mags. Don't get me wrong, I see the advantages to the GB to make such a change, but my great-great-Aunt Maybell who pioneered for 50 years and died at the ripe ol' age of 101 is NOT of the anointed? She's NOT in heaven? I DON'T THINK SO BUDDY!!
I think making it symbolic will give them the room they need to make all the "anointments" they want. Besides, the R&F already look at new partakers as looney-tunes now, an appointed to a high position by the GB would be just about the only way for the R&F in the local cong. to take him seriously.
HERES MY BIG SPECULATION - Blood will become a conscience decistion.
In many ways it is already. You said that changes are snuck in right under our noses? This is absolutely the case with blood.. "any fraction is acceptable", blood is not a DF'ing offence but the offenders statement of disassociation, the statement to the European human rights that no sanctions are placed on members that use blood. Blood is just too difficult to defend. This is a huge thorn in the WTS's side. I has to go
I think we should resist the urge to take an outsider's perspective on change. We can all easily imagine ourselves as business consultants hired by the Watchtower to come up with a list of initiatives to improve morale and promote growth and retention.
Let's not forget that the men on the GB won a decades-long competition designed to reward the most loyal company men and status quo seekers. They've been selected for their aversion to change. Had they demonstrated the inclination to think creatively or shown independent thinking, they would have been weeded out at the CO or ambitious young Bethelite level.
Edited to add:
You also have the 2/3 supermajority problem. Even if you were successful in convincing a change-resistant GB member, you'd have to get 2/3 of them to agree. That's a tall order.
An exceedingly slow death by bureaucratic inertia remains the most likely outcome, in my opinion.
Separation - Very good points. I'm sure the WT will dig all of those out of their goodie-bag to use as support for their major changes. Also the fact that while women were present during some of these occasions, the "casting of lots" and "laying on of hands" did not apply to them.
I think it is also quite interesting that recent Watchtower articles continue to praise women for "being submissive" - but never for taking the lead in any situation. Even in high-profile situations (disaster relief, etc.) they are always praised for their support roles and none ever seem to be given lead positions. The Watchtower continues to be one of the most sexist organizations even in Western societies and still manage to maintain an ongoing majority of women amongst its ranks.
Designer - thanks for sharing that with JWR. Haven't been on there for a while, but will stop by and try to keep those folks updated as well.
JV
Juan,
Does your contact wonder where the future of the org lies? We are so passed the point of no return, that is when we thought all the Bible prophecies would have happened by now, that there seems to be nothing immediate on the horizon except change for the sake of change.
Reading his comments gives me the impression there is some malevolent intelligence at work here - they know the end is not coming and so they secretly sit behing closed doors and figure out what to tell the sheep next, but ultimately what is really going through their mind as they close Bethels, cut back on literature, remove the private book study arrangement, reduce convention days, eliminate District Overseers and yet build a huge compound in Walkill?
I feel there is some sort of "grand scheme" afoot - or am I mistaken. Is this reactionary change because the Society have cornered themselves with their own chronology?
Truthseeker
