I have changed my opinion a lot since being on this site went from an awakening JW to a christians to agnostic, and a lot of it was to do the things I read on this site that lead me to research other sites and topics.
Don't Expect This Site To Change Anybody's Religious Opinion
by minimus 65 Replies latest jw friends
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snare&racket
Minimus, sometimes you say the most bizzare things. I was a young pioneer and reading this site in secret, even in bethel i read it in secret. It was 2000 and 2001 and I used a WAP phone to see the webpages And read the stories via JW NET SOUP.
You are simply incorrect.
Are you a current JW minimus?
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talesin
The key is, I said, don't expect the site to change anybody's religious opinion. Don't EXPECT people to change their views just because you think they will or should.
Min, I totally *get* what you are saying, and agree. Yes, some, or perhaps many, people willl change their views ... just don't EXPECT any specific individual to change their religious opinions. Expectations are a set-up for failure. Any good shrink will tell you "expect nothing, and accept or reject what people are willing to give". You can't 'make' someone agree with you, anymore than you can 'make' someone love you.
Expecting people to accept logic over faith, and being 'in their face about it', constantly, only makes them defensive. The natural extension of defensive stance, is shutting down and tuning out what they do not wish to hear. Hammering someone over the head with logic, well, it just doesn't work. I've seen it time and again, over the past few years.
It's kind of ironic, here on the forum. Those who are trying to get their loved ones out of the cult are cautioned "don't push them" ... and "slip in your points" because true believers won't hear the facts if you push too hard.
BUT
On other threads, we see religious people and atheists doing that VERY THING - ramming their facts and opinions down each other's throats, insulting each other, and what happens? Nothing. Sometimes people reading these exchanges may learn stuff and have a lightbulb moment, that is true. But the people who cross swords on the forum, not so much. The 'debate' is more of an argument with lots of sly mud-slnging, and it tends to make folks dig in their heels, and figuratively put their fingers in their ears and go "LA LA LA ,,,, I CAN'T HEAR YOU"
*shrugs*
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konceptual99
Do you think some expect that simply accessing this site over a period of time will change a visitor's religious opinion? I would be surprised if anyone really thinks that. So it's a bit of a dud point surely?
From my own experience I would second the messages above that being on here has helped to change religious opinion. I have been able to hear ideas and points of view expressed that would have been simple noise to me a couple of years ago. I have had support and encouragement. Sure, you could argue that I was pre-disposed to changing my view already but surely the important point is that coming here has been an indispensible and major part of supporting ones leaving the WTS.
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Ucantnome
I think it depends on different things, how long since you left the witnesses, the reasons why you left, why you believe, maybe.
I've found a certain amount of clarity of thought by reading and posting while reading other material and talking. I understand my reasons for leaving the witnesses more clearly and in some ways my views have changed. An example of this. This moring when i woke and thinking more clearly and something i read that Augustine wrote popped into my head along with something i'd read on here and researched later clarified more the reason i left, slightly different from what i originally thought.
a witness recently told me they will be coming round, with the memorial coming, and it always helps to be more clear in ones thoughts.
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talesin
Do you think some expect that simply accessing this site over a period of time will change a visitor's religious opinion? I would be surprised if anyone really thinks that. So it's a bit of a dud point surely?
Yes, I do! In the past decade, I have seen quite a few folks who 'came out' on the board, and said they had been lurking for months or years. By reading this site, they were able to begin to see TTATT and change their life around.
Truly, it's not a dud point .......... the information here, and even the discussions (and sometimes arguments and flame wars) have provided a lot of food for thought for many lurkers, who later came forward and thanked Simon and all for helping them see TTATT. -
cofty
Hammering someone over the head with logic, well, it just doesn't work. ... ramming their facts and opinions down each other's throats - Talesin
If you put the pejorative words aside and remove "opinions" I couldn't disagree more.
How about - "presenting facts, evidence, logic and reason to counter superstition and fear".
It really does work. Of course some believers are impervious to facts but don't judge all the same.
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konceptual99
Hi talesin,
Sorry, I did not make my point very clearly. I agree 100% that the content on the site can stimulate critical thinking and by coming here, even one that starts off as an apologist could change their opinion.
My understanding of the OP is that the site on it's own will not change opinion. Someone has to, at some point, be receptive to the information. It is not likely that someone who is still mentally in would hit on the site and have their opinion changed by browsing a few of the threads. Sure, lurking and continued access will increase the chance of a change of mind but if someone is lurking then they are likely already questioning things and looking for answers.
None of this minimises the fact that this site has been instrumental in helping many. many ones along their journey away from the WTS.
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talesin
Cofty,
By "opnions', I was identifying the religious people, because all they have are opinions. By 'facts', I was referring to you and others like you, who educate, educate, educate! :)
Presenting facts, imho, is a process which is devoid of emotion, and must be done in a meticulous fashion, so as to not present immediately as a threat to the listener. My main point was that we may gain more ground by taking a softer approach, as we do with those we are trying to rescue from the cult.
I mean, let's face it. We are very comfortable and secure in our atheism, because we have *facts* - undeniable facts. THose who believe, do not have that option, as their belief systems are mired in half-truths and superstition. When a belief system has no factual basis, the first line of defence for believers is to deny. Speaking from a psychological viewpoint, the next defense is to shut down - they hear, but don't process - nothing gets through.
Do you get the comparison I made? We need (in my opinion, and it is humble) to speak to Xtians in the same way we speak to JWs ........... don't put them on the defensive, if we really want them to think about our points,,,, just as we would do with JW friends and family.
:)
I think we are on the same page. Maybe our clashing is just the result of timing and personal style ........ I have spent 30+ years battling the WT mindset with my family, and have different insights than yours .......... your battle/struggle has been more recent, but our journeys were similar in some ways. I never embraced another faith when I left JW,,, but like you, I did a lot of research............ a lot of educating ........ and came to the same conclusion as you.
xx
PS. You don't know me, but for the past 4 years, have lived in mind-bending pain, so please forgive my negativty in the past, towards you at times - I had a short fuse and didn't know how to deal with it. Pain destroys every aspect of one's life, I'm so sorry we clashed!
. I have NOT been myself. This is the real me now ................. patient, thoughtful ... I'm sorry we met when I was in such severe crisis and pain ... I know I have been a right bitch for the past couple of years, but that was not me. It was my *physical* pain, and also my *psychic* pain, being demoralized by doctors, in agony ........... nuff said, but suffice that I have NOT been my true self since we met ............. damn, pain changes you ........ I hate what pain has done to me.
Anyhow, I hope we can starrt fresh ............... with a new attitude on both parts. :))
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talesin
My understanding of the OP is that the site on it's own will not change opinion. Someone has to, at some point, be receptive to the information.
Agreed.