by jam 154 Replies latest jw friends
Hi TWOY,
Thanks for sharing.
Yes, it seems that the Catholic Church, as well as the Anglican Church have reconsidered the doctrine of final punishment.
I'm not so sure, in the light of Matthew 25, that the scenario at Christ's return will be quite so bright as you suggest however.
Yes dear vanderhofen,
yes but perhaps the catolic church never official taught torment or conscious pain, whereas the priests spoke of it on the cancel. I dont know the middleage church or how it was 100 years ago.
Mat 25: although the eternal punishment is used, it could be merely a lingustic instrument to create a comparison between eternal punishment and eternal life, If Jesus really used the comparison himself and it was not a linguistic item, it is simple giving emphazise to the shocking reality, that
somehone or "a single sheep" could be lost somehow by the shepherd. Here he does not speak of gehenna, but the image of the symbolic place of punishemnt was certainly in the heads of thep people.
Mat 25 in general: i like the parable because it shows of what jesus speaks: he identifies himself with the needy people, a single act of mercy that I do to someone who needs me, could be watched by Jesus, i dont know when he will watch me or when i will meet him, perhpas after death and that single act could mean that I am not getting lost.
Greetings of TWOY
and yes too dear Vanderhofen, God does not punish - not eternal and not short!
1. it would be unlogical to read conscious pains or torments in many bible passages, torment itself is used as an image.
2. no burning people , no actual pertual pains, no literal flames, no literal court, no actual punishment , how wonderful,
nothing to be afraid of at all, because God does not punish or judge with the measures of quantitative means. !
3. Gehenna and other popular images of punishment were used by the apostels as vehicle for the teaching that
there is the shocking possibiltie to get lost, to make a total failure and to lose the eternal life.
4. How you would explain the differenc between
a) possibilty to get lost
b) punishment to death and annihilation?
The first is a possibilty the second gives the impression of a punishing God!
5. Thus i primarly think: We must not remain at merely saying "the images are merely meaning death and annihilation",
althought a very honourable work, but thus we yet more remain in the thought line of a punishing God,
perhaps we even encourage such a false understanding. But trough using "possiblily to get lost" like a sheep,
We could as responsible teachers demonstrate that God has a personal feeling for each single individuum,
is interested in our eternal welfare.
6. Thus i think secondly: is is insufficient to explain the biblical images simple as mean destruction, because destruction and annihilation itself or images of loosing Gods communion but we should show that God loves us to the maximal extent he can, what Jesus demonstrated and was witness of, that he does not want our failure, that his communion solely means real life, and that the church calls in demotic words "hell", (1st century "Fire")
7. But all teachers here, please do not remain in the thinking: "Which sentence could God mean here and there, is it an eternal or an single one?" because God doesn not punish anyone (not eternal and not short), this is the meaning of mercy. His mercy is without limit said Pope Francesco lately in the mass. And John Paul II said always "Be not afraid".
Sincerly yours, TWOY
and yes too dear Vanderhofen, God does not punish - not eternal and not short!
1. it would be unlogical to read conscious pains or torments in many bible passages, torment itself is used as an image.
2. no burning people , no actual pertual pains, no literal flames, no literal court, no actual punishment , how wonderful,
nothing to be afraid of at all, because God does not punish or judge with the measures of quantitative means. !
3. Gehenna and other popular images of punishment were used by the apostels as vehicle for the teaching that
there is the shocking possibiltie to get lost, to make a total failure and to lose the eternal life.
4. How you would explain the differenc between
a) possibilty to get lost
b) punishment to death and annihilation?
The first is a possibilty the second gives the impression of a punishing God!
5. Thus i primarly think: We must not remain at merely saying "the images are merely meaning death and annihilation",
althought a very honourable work, but thus we yet more remain in the thought line of a punishing God,
perhaps we even encourage such a false understanding. But trough using "possiblily to get lost" like a sheep,
We could as responsible teachers demonstrate that God has a personal feeling for each single individuum,
is interested in our eternal welfare.
6. Thus i think secondly: is is insufficient to explain the biblical images simple as mean destruction, because destruction and annihilation itself or images of loosing Gods communion but we should show that God loves us to the maximal extent he can, what Jesus demonstrated and was witness of, that he does not want our failure, that his communion solely means real life, and that the church calls in demotic words "hell", (1st century "Fire")
7. But all teachers here, please do not remain in the thinking: "Which sentence could God mean here and there, is it an eternal or an single one?" because God doesn not punish anyone (not eternal and not short), this is the meaning of mercy. His mercy is without limit said Pope Francesco lately in the mass. And John Paul II said always "Be not afraid".
Sincerly yours, TWOY
I've come to feel Hell is alienation from God. I noticed in Cain and Abel case , Cain was isolated from others. The fallen angels were eventually thrown down to heaven and not allowed back in. They were isolated from God. It seems God uses this technique .
on the lighter side, if you care to, look on you tube for Ray Wylie Hubbard and a song called " Conversation with the Devil". I won't put the link here b/c this is a serious thread but it is an interesting song and really insightful too.
English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)
10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulphur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)
8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there!
If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK)
6 Sheol is naked before God,
and Abaddon has no covering.
God is omnipresent. Stephen
Do you think the mention of "wine" in verse 10 is literal or a metaphor.
Just because a verse might contain a metaphor, it does not mean the whole sentence, verse, paragraph, chapter or book is.
The JWs have tried that one on myself regarding Revelation already.
They call hell symbolic yet heaven literal.
QED.
Stephen
.
JWs say "lake of fire" is symbolic, remember they don't believe in "Hell".
