An important difference between atheists and true believers

by Hortensia 219 Replies latest social current

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    I am an atheist.

    To be "fair" to the true believers, who think they have something good to sell - "salvation" - atheists have NOTHING to sell (both literally and figuratively).

    There are, of course "militant atheists" who feel threatened by believers and feel they need to win arguments against them.

    I'm not a militant atheist. I describe myself as a "non-practicing atheist". It's an atheist KOAN; dig it?

    I believe I have a true and accurate understanding of the nature of the universe. If I do, nothing can change that reality. Similarly, if Ahura-Mazda is really King of Kings and Lord of Lords, his position is not threatened by my disbelief.

    Jehovah, on the other hand, is a bit different. He is insecure and craves - DEMANDS - worship. Without it he will wither and die, like the Forgotten nameless gods who came before him. That insecurity on the part of Jehovah-El-Allah is reflected in the minds of the persons whose brains he inhabits, which is why the Middle East is the bastion of peace and brotherhood that it is today.

  • Hortensia
    Hortensia

    I describe myself as a "non-practicing atheist". It's an atheist KOAN; dig it?

    I dig it!

    Nicolau, very funny!

    Not so cranky today, have recovered from overexposure to fairy tales.

  • kassad84
    kassad84

    "How are you to know that He is in the midst of you?"

    "If we are not keeping His commandments, He is not. But His presence can not be proved; it can only be known. If He meets us, it is not necessary to the joy of His presence that we should be able to prove that He does meet us! If a man has the company of the Lord, he will care little whether another does or does not believe that he has."

    - George MacDonald

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    Apog....

    Atheism is nothing more than rejection of one more god than you, because just as with the others there is no evidence to suggest he exists. Atheism says nothing about how a person feels about science, nature or santa claus !

    No really! See if you can spot any reference to science, or a word I have never heard before 'scientism'? in this definition of atheism that I recognise...

    (by the way who on earth rejects science?!)

    Atheism is the absence of belief in any Gods or spiritual beings. The word Atheism comes froma, meaning without, and theism meaning belief in god or gods.

    • Atheists don't use God to explain the existence of the universe.
    • Atheists say that human beings can devise suitable moral codes to live by without the aid of Gods or scriptures.
    Reasons for non-belief

    People are atheist for many reasons, among them:

    • They find insufficient evidence to support any religion.
    • They think that religion is nonsensical.
    • They once had a religion and have lost faith in it.
    • They live in a non-religious culture.
    • Religion doesn't interest them.
    • Religion doesn't seem relevant to their lives.
    • Religions seem to have done a lot of harm in the world.
    • The world is such a bad place that there can't be a God.

    Many atheists are also secularist, and are hostile to any special treatment given to organised religion.

    It is possible to be both atheist and religious. Virtually allBuddhists manage it, as do some adherents of other religions,such as Judaism and Christianity.

    Atheists and morality

    Atheists are as moral (or immoral) as religious people.

    In practical terms atheists often follow the same moral code as religious people, but they arrive at the decision of what is good or bad without any help from the idea of God.

    What does it mean to be human?

    Atheists find their own answers to the question of what it means to be human. This discussion looks at the question from both theological and ethical viewpoints.

    See no reference to science at all... JUST AS I would never judge a believers assessment of science because they may be a believer!

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Snare,

    My comments are not comical. Several atheists on this site are intent on imposing their viewpoint. There are many comments how people such as myself as lame. My retort is you are lame. Mainstream Christianity is broad and composed of highly educated people. I am so tired of hearing falsehoods from atheists. It is the opposite behavior of what I see of atheists in real life. First, real life atheists go about their business. They do not need to disrespect other people.

    Believers are afraid of you. Well, I am Not Afraid. It seems to be a product of the Witness to think in black and white terms. Most people don't see the need to drag out believer/atheist conversations. In fact, I don't know when the last time someone announced they were atheist and that I was stupid. It does not happen in real life. Respect costs you little. Ok, you left. You are entitled to have an opinion. So am I.

    No, it is not comical. Perhaps you need a remedial Comedy 101 class.

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    Atheism is nothing more than rejection of one more god than you, because just as with the others there is no evidence to suggest he exists. Atheism says nothing about how a person feels about science, nature or santa claus !

    Fair enough, you got me there. I was conflating some atheists (as found on this board) with all atheists, but I should have known better, because I have seen people talk about their lack of belief in God while also demonstrating little interest in science.

    My description does, however, apply to what others recently on this board have called "fundamentalist atheists". I figured out what that meant, it's people who feel the need to save others by encouraging them to have faith in scientists. In trying to articulate this, I invented a word which I felt would be self-explanatory, scientism, to refer to faith placed in scientists. However I failed to realize that one who practices scientism would be a scientist, and this was not my intended message, because faith in scientists is different from faith in the scientific method.

    Here's the difference: a scientist has faith in the scientific method. He does science (meaning 1 -- the activity) according to this method, and the knowledge he gains is added to science (meaning 2 -- the body of knowledge). Then, others put faith in his work -- the laypeople. These people do not really have faith in the scientific method, but rather faith in the scientists who they assume are smart and trustworthy.

    If they had faith in the scientific method then they would only believe strongly in the things they proved to themselves through scientific experiments and observations. Instead, most people place faith in the scientific community. Virtually everyone on this board is in this second category, including myself. I place faith in scientists to tell me about the world, but do no experiments of my own to prove it. I have not even proven to myself that the earth is round. Like most here, I rely on received wisdom to tell me whether we evolved and what shape the earth is.

    It is not wrong, in my opinion, to put faith in scientists, as their work has borne many fruits which have created the civilization we find ourselves in. However, I still think it's important to recognize a distinction between telling someone to put faith in "science, the activity" and to put faith in "science, the accumulated wisdom". We are not present for any of the experiments which teach us about our world and so we cannot say whether the data for some new finding is accurate or made up. There seems to be a scandal occurring right now over STAP cells, for instance, due to possible data falsification.

    What concerns me, therefore, is when people assign themselves to a team and root tirelessly for it without realizing that their team is not the scientists, but the cheerleaders on the side. I don't like seeing people get puffed up with others' pride.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    I see science as a practice, a methodology. It's a proven method of question, theory, test, and observation that gets us closer to the truth.

    I say to call science a belief is a false equivalence. If we were to compare the practice of science to religion, we might compare it to say, the practice of prayer.

    Science is not an "ism" at all, other than some people put more faith in this practice than in others, including religious.

    Now, I have no fight with prayer. I'll accept any that come my way. But I'm not going off my prescribed medications either, having put my faith in the science behind those little pills.

  • KateWild
    KateWild

    I don't think we can generalise between athiests and believers. People are people some very zealous and enthusiastic about what they have learned and what they believe, and some not so enthusiastic. There are a few entusiastic athiests on this board who love to impart what they have learned over the years.

    There are also a few believers on this board who try and express why they believe what they believe, me being one of them. I don't think there are many who try and proselytise though. Most believers just express their beliefs.

    We need to show tolerance for the differences we all have, that require patience and the ability to accept everyone has a world view of their own because they are unique.

    Kate xx

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    "My description does, however, apply to what others recently on this board have called "fundamentalist atheists". I figured out what that meant, it's people who feel the need to save others by encouraging them to have faith in scientists."

    Faith is assured expectation for things hoped for. Faith requires no evidence. Faith is dangerous and ill advised. I don't have faith in science! I test it and question it and only accept it on evidence. Why would anyone not do that? We are not evangelising science, that is like saying we evangelise gravity or atoms or even evolution. I do promote evidence and the best mechanism for retrievimg it..... the scientific method. But if people want to reject it,mI have no issue with that. I come here to talk to people who WANT to learn.

    I must ask, how does faith apply to science? We don't hope that e=mc2 or that chemotherapy kills cancer cells or that evolution happens. Once more it is an attempt to make athism a religion by claiming we are out converting. Not only are you once more making claims about atheists, i.e. their views on science, having already admitted before saying the above that you shouldn't do that, but you are also wrong.

    I would say without a doubt in my mind and in full honesty I 100% have an agenda to deconvert people, but not to follow me, or follow any belief system....but to deconvert & to take up critical appraisal and evidence and free thought...nothing more.

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    Faith is assured expectation for things hoped for. Faith requires no evidence. Faith is dangerous and ill advised. I don't have faith in science! I test it and question it and only accept it on evidence.

    Can you name some scientific teachings which you have tested? My point above was that most of us rely on what we read in books. That's faith. Testing and questioning involve doing laboratory work or at least some kind of footwork. To give a concrete example, we tend to accept that the earth is round, but we do not experiment to prove this to ourselves. At the very least if a person wants to claim that they do not have faith that the earth is round, but rather they know it is round, then they should have performed the same measurements that Eratosthenes supposedly did. Otherwise they are placing faith in what others have told them about the shape of the earth.

    Why would anyone not do that? We are not evangelising science, that is like saying we evangelise gravity or atoms or even evolution.

    First of all, what's wrong with evangelizing science? Carl Sagan is known primarily as a science popularizer. If a popularizer isn't an evangelist, I don't know what is. Evangelism is not a word applied solely to religion, you know. Any time you promote the scientific method as the path of salvation you are evangelizing. Personally I support anyone who wants to do this tactfully. Neil deGrasse Tyson is currently doing a great job at this.

    I would say without a doubt in my mind and in full honesty I 100% have an agenda to deconvert people, but not to follow me, or follow any belief system....but to deconvert & to take up critical appraisal and evidence and free thought...nothing more.

    Even a commitment to critical thinking and evidence is a belief system; it's putting faith in the power of rational thought. While I support this belief system, I also think that the vast majority of people are not doing this. That was the main point of my post above: that most of us are relying on scientists to tell us what to think. There isn't any critical thinking going on in our heads 99% of the time.

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