by androb31 56 Replies latest watchtower bible
Yes you're right, that is the standard response.
1 - If god wanted to stop a wicked nation from practising wicked things like child sacrifice, how does it make sense to specifically murder all the children?
2 - Yes a deity would have the right to take life away on a whim. But, the question is how god's actions compare with the claim that he is love.
Cofty:
Good questions. I'm going to think about those for the night. My shift is done but I will be back first thing tomorrow. 7am Colorado time anyway, MST lol. Have a good one
I'm on UK time. Catch up later.
Cheers from NE England.
My question would be Why didn't you make it obvious that you exist? If there is a creator than he has every right to demand worship. But it's up to hiM to make his presence known. You can't expect people to know that your there.
I want to know what is your best case for or against god and/or if god exists hypothetically speaking what is your case against him/her for or against having any devotion or contempt for him/her.
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Every deity and the supposed actions of those deities were all imagined by mankind in human history.
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So you would have to prosecute those thoughts at their source, from man
Members of the jury, I intend to show that this Mr. God created mankind with innocence then challenged the first humans with a command beyond their innocence and one of HIS own other creations interfered in their understanding of that command. Further, Mr. God expected the humans to blindly obey regardless of what that snake in the garden told them. As a side note, we may explore how the snake actually was telling the truth. But on the main point, He self-admittedly made ill-prepared creatures and subjected them to cruel punishments when they failed to live up to His expectations.
Further, He wiped out people, destroyed cities and armies, cast people into slavery, and continues down to this day to turn His back on suffering, including allowing the lives of innocent children to be taken away in horrible ways when He could simply prevent it. Even His supposed solution to the woes of mankind involves more death and anguish.
It is the intention of the prosecution to strip Mr. God of his claims to be all-wise and loving and even "good." And it is the goal of this trial to insist that Mr. God either deliver on His original intentions for mankind or at least to apply the alledged value of the ransom. Short of that, the prosecution would at least ask for a court order of protection, keeping Mr. God away from interfering with humankind ever again.
Lesser courts have ruled against pet-owners for doing far less harm than Mr. God has done for humans.
LOL, I have to say lol, because the answer is incredibly simple: but because we are raised in Christian countries, surrounded by churches, taught that the Bible is holy- even to be sworn on in a court of law- and surrounded by Christians all professing their belief... it is almost impossible to view the Bible with a rational, 'open mind'. Bur seriously, have another look at this book full of Babylonian myths, meaningless genealogies, scraps of letters, and all the other old bollocks that fill the pages out- and ask yourself this: why would an omnipotent creator of the entire universe f**k around in such a foolish way with a tribe of sheep-herders in the Middle East? Given what we now know about time & space, the idea is ludicrous.
cofty: The natural world appears designed to maximise suffering. Most living things live short and stressful lives which are cut short by starvation, exposure, predation, infection or parasites.
I have pondered that for over thirty years. The natural world is hideous, cruel, filled with horror and suffering. I've seen unspeakable horror and suffering in the natural world. Just one example: A few years ago I heard a high-pitched blood-curdling scream coming from the direction of my long wooded driveway. When I found the source of the scream, to my horror I saw a snake about six feet long (some kind of non-poisonous one) with a half-swallowed juvenile squirrel in its mouth. The snake was swallowing the squirrel tail first and the poor squirrel was screaming in sheer terror.
I was able to scare the snake away and it dropped the squirrel. It didn't appear to be harmed, but it died overnight probably from the sheer mental trauma and stress of the situation. That's just one little sample out of many billions
I mentioned recently on another thread the horror and brutality and suffering that take place on the plains of Africa on any given night. Animals live in a state of constant caution, looking over their shoulders for danger. A vet told me recently that animals in the wild have it bad, that they often die slow deaths from diseases like distemper. We recenlty found an old coon dead under an outbuilding at our house. It was one we fed every night. She was so old, that she had gray hair and cataracts. She evidenlty crawled under the building and died slowly. It was really cold. We wondered what it must have been like to have been old, sick, and freezing cold and to have died slowly.
I agree, Cofty. I have extensive notes on this subject. Nature is cruel and brutal.
There have been several treatments of this question in literature and film that may be worth reading or watching.
E.g. there is Elie Wiesel's play "The Trial of God"(ISBN 978-0805210538):
The Trial of God (as it was held on February 25, 1649, in Shamgorod)
A Play by Elie Wiesel
Translated by Marion Wiesel
Introduction by Robert McAfee Brown
Afterword by Matthew Fox
Where is God when innocent human beings suffer? This drama lays bare the most vexing questions confronting the moral imagination.
Set in a Ukranian village in the year 1649, this haunting play takes place in the aftermath of a pogrom. Only two Jews, Berish the innkeeper and his daughter Hannah, have survived the brutal Cossack raids. When three itinerant actors arrive in town to perform a Purim play, Berish demands that they stage a mock trial of God instead, indicting Him for His silence in the face of evil. Berish, a latter-day Job, is ready to take on the role of prosecutor. But who will defend God? A mysterious stranger named Sam, who seems oddly familiar to everyone present, shows up just in time to volunteer.
The idea for this play came from an event that Elie Wiesel witnessed as a boy in Auschwitz: “Three rabbis—all erudite and pious men—decided one evening to indict God for allowing His children to be massacred. I remember: I was there, and I felt like crying. But there nobody cried.”
Inspired and challenged by this play, Christian theologians Robert McAfee Brown and Matthew Fox, in a new Introduction and Afterword, join Elie Wiesel in the search for faith in a world where God is silent.
And there is, of course, that great movie (television play) based on Wiesel's play, "God on Trial" from 2008:
Who is to blame for the greatest of all crimes? Facing extermination at Auschwitz, a group of prisoners solemnly weighs the case against God.
Following the harrowing ritual of selection for death or hard labor, a group of new inmates unsure of their appointed fates begins asking how God could allow for so much suffering. Impulsively, the men decide to put God on trial for abandoning His chosen people. Amid the sound of prisoners outside being marched to the gas chamber, the trial unfolds, addressing the age-old question: How can there be evil in a universe ruled by an all-powerful, benevolent God?
Some of the prisoners are passionate defenders of their faith, but as the hour approaches when many of them will be chosen to die, they reach a verdict. It is a surprising conclusion to this challenging and respectful proceeding.
