by Ancientofdays 61 Replies latest jw experiences
Why meet with him at all? You're not obligated to. Do you really have something to discuss with him? I'd politely decline. You realize this is a Witch Hunt, right? Why step into that trap?
"On second thought, I don't see a meeting with you as essential to my well being. If I feel the need of a shepherding visit, I'll call you. Thanks."
Don't play games. Ask him directly "Are you seeking to find a reason to disfellowship me?"
"What is your real goal in meeting with me?"
"Why have you been speaking to my wife about me? - What was you trying to find out from her that you was afraid of asking me directly?"
I always find it's best to cut to the chase on these things, and if you don't do it then he will never come out with anything so open.
If he seems to dodge a question ask "why are you dodging my question?"
If he seems to be less then open and honest, ask "Why do I sense you are not being open and honest in your answer?"
I think you get the picture.
Splash
Print this out and ask him to go over it with you.
Highlights from the 6-1-81 and 5-1-98 WT articles.
81 WT- The second part of Joel’s prophecy deals with repentance and the restoration that followed it. We read at Joel 2:12-14: [“And now also,” the utterance of Jehovah is,]“Come back to me with all your hearts, and with fasting and with weeping and with wailing. And rip apart your hearts, and not your garments; and come back to Jehovah your God, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness [and he will certainly feel regret on account of the calamity.] Who is there knowing whether he will turn back and actually feel regret and let remain after it a blessing, a grain offering and a drink offering for Jehovah your God?” This part of the prophecy also appears to have had its particular fulfillment in modern times, notably during World War I when God’s people had unclean lips and Jehovah was angry with them. It was then that Jehovah’s people repentantly implored God, as noted at Joel 2:17: [“Between the porch and the altar let the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, weep and say,]“Do feel sorry, O Jehovah, for your people, and do not make your inheritance a reproach, for nations to rule over them. Why should they say among the peoples: ‘Where is their God?’”—Compare Isaiah 12:1; 6:5.
98 WT- Today, Christendom’s clergy have assumed authority to serve at God’s altar, claiming to be his ministers, his “priests.” However, what is happening now that God’s modern-day locusts are on the move?
98 WT- The modern-day locust army is none other than the military force of Jehovah’s anointed locusts, now joined by some 5,600,000 of Jesus’ “other sheep.” (John 10:16) Are you not glad to be part of this great throng of Jehovah’s worshipers?
4-1-07 WT -The other sheep are happy and grateful to serve Jehovah under the oversight of the slave class and its Governing Body. They recognize the anointed as members of “the Israel of God.” (Galatians 6:16) As figurative “strangers” and “foreigners” associated with spiritual Israel, they joyfully serve as “farmers” and “vinedressers” under the direction of the anointed, the “priests of Jehovah” and ‘ministers of God.’
Highlights From the Books of Joel and Amos
Invasion by the caterpillar, the locust, and the cockroach is what Joel sees in vision. The invaders are referred to as “a people numerous and mighty” and as “powerful men.” (Joel 1:4; 2:2-7) “Alas for the day,” sighs Joel, “because the day of Jehovah is near, and like a despoiling from the Almighty One it will come!” (Joel 1:15) Jehovah counsels the inhabitants of Zion: “Come back to me with all your hearts.” If they do, Jehovah will “show compassion upon his people” and will put far away “the northerner”—the insect assault. w07 10/1 pp. 12-15 - The Watchtower—2007
it-1 p. 487- The prophet Joel foretold a devastating onslaught by a horde of insects that would desolate the land, mentioning the cha·sil′ last, as the insect that consumes whatever has been left behind by the others. (Joe 1:4) Later, the prophet tells of the time when there will be blessings and forgiveness. The invader will be turned back and compensation made for what the cha·sil′ and the other membersof God’s “great military force” have eaten. (Joe 2:25)
[9 “Grain offering and drink offering have been cut off from the house of Jehovah; the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, have mourned. 11 Farmers have felt shame; vinedressers have howled 13 “Gird yourselves, and beat YOUR breasts, YOU priests. Howl, YOU ministers of [the] altar. Come in, spend the night in sackcloth, YOU ministers of my God; for from the house of YOUR God grain offering and drink offering have been withheld. 18 the droves of the sheep have been the ones made to bear guilt.]
98 WT-That is the way both the anointed and the other sheep view things, and as a result, Jehovah blesses them. [17 “Between the porch and the altar let the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, weep and say, ‘Do feel sorry, O Jehovah, for your people, and do not make your inheritance a reproach, for nations to rule over them. Why should they say among the peoples: “Where is their God?”’] “Jehovah will be zealous for his land and will show compassion upon his people.” (Joel 2:18) [19 And Jehovah will answer and say to his people, ‘Here I am sending to YOU the grain and the new wine and the oil, and YOU people will certainly be satisfied with it; and I shall not make YOU anymore a reproach among the nations. 20 And the northerner I shall put far away from upon YOU, and I shall actually disperse him to a waterless land and desolated waste,] In 1919, Jehovah showed zeal and compassion for his people when he restored them and brought them into his realm of spiritual activity.
Highlights From the Books of Joel and Amos
Invasion by the caterpillar, the locust, and the cockroach is what Joel sees in vision. The invaders are referred to as “a people numerous and mighty” and as “powerful men.” (Joel 1:4; 2:2-7) “Alas for the day,” sighs Joel, “because the day of Jehovah is near, and like a despoiling from the Almighty One it will come!” (Joel 1:15) Jehovah counsels the inhabitants of Zion: “Come back to me with all your hearts.” If they do, Jehovah will “show compassion upon his people” and will put far away “the northerner”—the insect assault. w07 10/1 pp. 12-15 - The Watchtower—2007
98 WT- In the context of Joel 2:28, 29, we find that Joel too stresses repentance. For example, at Joel 2:12, 13, we read: “‘And now also,’ the utterance of Jehovah is, ‘come back to me with all your hearts, and with fasting and with weeping and with wailing. And rip apart your hearts, and not your garments; and come back to Jehovah your God, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness [and he will certainly feel regret on account of the calamity]. Starting in 1919, anointed Christians acted in harmony with these words. They repented over their failures and determined never again to compromise or slow down. This opened the way for God’s spirit to be poured out.
Highlights From the Books of Joel and Amos
Invasion by the caterpillar, the locust, and the cockroach is what Joel sees in vision. The invaders are referred to as “a people numerous and mighty” and as “powerful men.” (Joel 1:4; 2:2-7) “Alas for the day,” sighs Joel, “because the day of Jehovah is near, and like a despoiling from the Almighty One it will come!” (Joel 1:15) Jehovah counsels the inhabitants of Zion: “Come back to me with all your hearts.” If they do, Jehovah will “show compassion upon his people” and will put far away “the northerner”—the insect assault. w07 10/1 pp. 12-15 - The Watchtower—2007
[14 Sanctify a time of fasting. Call together a solemn assembly. Gather together [the] older men, all the inhabitants of the land, to the house of Jehovah YOUR God, and cry to Jehovah for aid.]
98 WT- When the “priests” of Christendom see Jehovah’s people in action and hear their warning of divine judgment, they become frantic. They beat their breasts in vexation and rage at the devastating effect of the Kingdom message. And they howl as their flocks slip away from them…God tells them to mourn all night because their end is near. According to Joel 1:14, their only hope lies in repenting and crying “to Jehovah for aid.”
[weep- to express emotion, such as grief or sadness, by shedding tears (crying); wail- to utter a prolonged, mournful cry, as in grief or suffering. mourn- to feel or express grief or sorrow; howl- a long wailing cry;]
81 WT- Joel 3 (1) 2-16, 19 It tells us why Jehovah is angry with the nations—because of the way they have treated his servants. They scattered them among the nations, making slaves of them. Also, they robbed Jehovah’s temple of its gold, silver and other desirable things, and brought these into their own temples. They did violence to the sons of Judah and shed innocent blood.]
[captive- a person who is enslaved or dominated
enslave- To make into or as if into a slave]
98 WT- We may ask, Who in modern times are to receive an adverse judgment from Jehovah? To get the answer to that question, we have to return to Joel’s prophecy. Joel 3:3 speaks of enemies of his people who [Joel 3:1 “For, look! in those days and in that time, when I shall bring back the captive ones of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also collect together all the nations and bring them down to the low plain of Je·hosh´a·phat; and I will put myself on judgment with them there on account of my people and my inheritance Israel, whom they scattered among the nations; and they apportioned out my own land. 3 And for my people they kept casting lots; and they]“would give the male child for a prostitute, and the female child they sold for wine.” Yes, they view God’s servants as far beneath them, their children worth no more than the hire of a prostitute or the cost of a jug of wine. They will have to answer for that.
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[6-15-85 WT- Another remarkable divine utterance will come to pass when Jehovah symbolically puts “hooks” in the jaws of Gog, or Satan, challenging him and his “military force” to attack His people on earth. (Ezekiel 38:2-4, 8-12)]
[6-1-97 WT-Verse 4 shows that God’s people need not fear this attack, however, because it is of Jehovah’s doing. But why would God allow—yes, even provoke—an all-out attack on his people?]
It is very clear that the WTS teaches that the account found in the 38 th and 39 th chapter of Ezekiel where Gog and his earthly forces will attack God’s people (Jehovah’s Witnesses) is a imminent attack to still occur. I do not question that teaching; I believe that it is true. However, in the following excerpts, the entire 39 th chapter is referenced and in one where the whole chapter is not included, verses 18-23 are. What I would like to discuss and have explained to me is, what is the teaching in regards to verse 23and to expand on that due to the excerpts including all of chapter 39 verses 1-29, then what is the teaching in regards to verses 24-29 as well???
[23 And the nations will have to know that it was because of their error that they, the house of Israel, went into exile, on account of the fact that they behaved unfaithfully toward me, so that I concealed my face from them and gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they kept falling, all of them, by the sword. 24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I did with them, and I kept concealing my face from them.’25 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Now is when I shall bring back the captive ones of Jacob and actually have mercy upon all the house of Israel; and I will show exclusive devotion for my holy name. 26 And they will have borne their humiliation and all their unfaithfulness with which they have acted toward me, when they dwell on their soil in security, with no one to make [them] tremble. 27 When I bring them back from the peoples and I actually collect them together out of the lands of their enemies, I will also sanctify myself among them before the eyes of many nations.’ 28 “‘And they will have to know that I am Jehovah their God, when I send them in exile to the nations and actually bring them together upon their soil, so that I shall leave none of them remaining there any longer. 29 And I shall no longer conceal my face from them, because I will pour out my spirit upon the house of Israel,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.”]
[5-15-90 WT- The spiritual prosperity of Jehovah’s Witnesses infuriates Satan the Devil, who will soon launch an all-out attack against these seemingly defenseless Christians. This worldwide assault by Satan, or Gog, is described in Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39. Under the Devil’s influence, the nations will march against Jehovah’s peace-loving people gathered out of all nations. Yes, satanic opposition will be manifested by global action against Jehovah’s earthly servants, the visible representatives and proclaimers of God’s Kingdom.]
[9-15-88 WT- Why, learning that Gog’s attack is imminent but that Jehovah will rescue His people ought to increase our faith and make us rejoice that such events will result in sanctifying God’s long-profaned name!—Ezekiel 39:1-29.]
[9-15-91 WT- In his role as Gog of Magog, denoting his present degraded position, Satan will marshal his earthly forces for an all-out attack on God’s people. Faith in divine protective powers in behalf of Jehovah’s Witnesses will be put to the test. But we can have faith that as God’s Word foretold, Jehovah will rescue his people.—Ezekiel 38:16; 39:18-23.]
The 29 th chapter of Isaiah speaks of Ariel being attack. The account shows that it is Jehovah that brings this attack upon Ariel. The WTS teaches the following in regards to:
[3-15-61 WT- Isaiah 29:4 reads: “And you must become low so that you will speak from the very earth, and as from the dust your saying will sound low. And like a spirit medium your voice must become even from the earth, and from the dust your own saying will chirp.”
The opening verse of Isaiah 29 shows that these words are addressed to Ariel, concerning which the footnote of the New World Translation states: “‘Ariel.’ Meaning, perhaps, ‘the altar hearth of God’; or, ‘the lion of God.’ Designating Jerusalem here.” This prophecy would therefore apply to spiritual Jerusalem as represented upon earth by the remnant.
These words show that God’s earthly organization would come under attack and would be reduced to a very low state by the enemies of God’s kingdom. God’s people would be, as it were, crushed to the earth, at the time of Gog’s attack upon them, so that what utterance they made, what vocal sounds they made, would come up from low down in their abasement. It would be sound coming up from the very dust of the earth. It would be as if a spirit medium were talking with the vocal sound coming from the dust of the earth. However, the next verses show that God would turn his attention to his faithful people who had been brought so low and he would work miracles on their behalf to deliver them from the power of the enemy so that their enemies and oppressors would become like dust and chaff that are quickly blown away by a violent windstorm.]
I do not question that teaching; I believe that it is true. However, in reading the whole chapter of Isaiah 29 what I would like to discuss and have explained to me is what is the teaching in regards to verses 9-15???
[9 Linger, YOU men, and be amazed; blind yourselves, and be blinded. They have become intoxicated, but not with wine; they have moved unsteadily, but not because of intoxicating liquor. 10 For upon YOU men Jehovah has poured a spirit of deep sleep; and he closes YOUR eyes, the prophets, and he has covered even YOUR heads, the visionaries. 11 And for YOU men the vision of everything becomes like the words of the book that has been sealed up, which they give to someone knowing the writing, saying: “Read this out loud, please,” and he has to say: “I am unable, for it is sealed up”; 12 and the book must be given to someone that does not know writing, [somebody] saying: “Read this out loud, please,” and he has to say: “I do not know writing at all.” 13 And Jehovah says: “For the reason that this people have come near with their mouth, and they have glorified me merely with their lips, and they have removed their heart itself far away from me, and their fear toward me becomes men’s commandment that is being taught, 14 therefore here I am, the One that will act wonderfully again with this people, in a wonderful manner and with something wonderful; and the wisdom of their wise men must perish, and the very understanding of their discreet men will conceal itself.” 15 Woe to those who are going very deep in concealing counsel from Jehovah himself, and whose deeds have occurred in a dark place, while they say: “Who is seeing us, and who is knowing of us?”]
Just as these two accounts are the counterparts of one another (As the WTS states.), is the account in the book of Joel also the counterpart of these two???
What about asking him if "legalism" is apostasy?
If he gives a half baked explanation, maybe ask him to define "legalism"?
*** g79 6/8 p. 28 Why the Emphasis on Christian Freedom? ***
...legalism... constitutes a denial of Christian faith
*** g79 6/8 pp. 27-28 Why the Emphasis on Christian Freedom? ***
Failing to appreciate this vital truth, certain Christianized Jews in the first century C.E. insisted that salvation could not be gained apart from the Law. Believing that acceptable moral conduct depended on strict adherence to the Law, they wanted to impose it on believing non-Jews. (Acts 15:2, 5) Such Christianized Jews lost sight of the fact that the Law in itself could not ensure fine conduct and that God’s spirit operating on those who exercised faith in Christ is a far stronger force for righteousness. (Gal. 5:16-18) The spirit of God produces love within the individual, and “love does not work evil to one’s neighbor.”—Rom. 13:10.
Persons who insisted on Law observance denied the value of all-essential faith and continued to look to works as the means for making themselves righteous. Their legalistic approach in matters of worship would have brought Christians back under an arrangement that only exposed individuals as being sinners and deserving of death.—Rom. 3:20; 6:23.
Hence, insistence on Law observance as a means for gaining salvation was really a returning to a slavery from which Christians had been set free on the basis of Jesus’ sacrifice.
Just be careful he may record your meeting...
Just keep your dignity, speak politely. Remembering that other people are around you will make you act like a dignified human being.
Keep telling yourself that "I am in control of what I will allow to affect me, and no one else", so dont be drawn into discussions you dont want to go into.
Dont allow yourself to feel intimidated or feel like a little child talking to a teacher...
You can say "thanks for the coffee" and leave anytime you wish.
If you don't play by their rules, they will do whatever is neccessary to protect their flock from you.
Tell him your worship the devil. And to not screw with you. The results should be entertaining indeed.
Arrive early before he does. Order 1 french fry. (Not a plate full, just one) When he comes, take it and slowly eat it in front of him. Do not say a word. Then when done chewing tell him you are sorry he didn't come when you expected him, get up, thank him for coming but you have to go, and leave with the check in your hand. Tell him you'll see him in six months.
ok--ive now established the CO means circuit overseer ( circuit servant when i was a dub-)-a lifetime ago-----
so--the CO talks to your wife to try to get the goods on you--? whatever happened to headship--? has this cult really descended to this level ?
i'm sure if i hadnt found sites like this 4 years ago--i would never have recoginised the cult if ever i went back to it ( dog forbid )
