Miss K arrived alone yesterday afternoon. It wasn't clear if Miss W would be coming with her for future visits or not. (apparently she had company, and could not make it). We had scheduled our first official session of our book study together. I think this whole meeting, was just "setting the stage." She is establishing her knowledge and trying to build some trust with me. I am also establishing trust with her. I did not act like an opposer, but as someone who has sincere questions. (I have no illusions that she will ever leave the organization she loves... but hope to find ways to reach my parents, whose faith is not cemented yet.)
We shared some small talk and she gave a long introductory speech, about how true and accurate the Watchtower publications are. She has had experiences with several people over the years... people who she believes are now giving her some credibility.
She told the story of one lady that she "studies" with, who attends an Episcopal church. This woman runs a Bible Study group in her home, but for some reason she asks Miss K, whenever the group has questions about historical events. This same woman had done a study on the fall of Jerusalem, and Miss K was talking about checking dates, and how surprised and pleased she was, to find out that the Watchtower had been so close in their estimated times of events. She also told me that this woman had "purchased" (through voluntary donation, in the form of a check from the Episcopal church) 8 copies of a JW book called "The Good Land." (?? I have never heard of it) The books were for the church library. I found that whole story bizarre.
Miss K had some other examples, and she seems to like using these anonymous references, to show that she is a trusted source. She told of a woman she is studying the "Draw Closer to Jehovah" book with, in order to help her regain her footing as an active JW. She is not disfellowshipped, but has been inactive for over 12 years. Miss K considers herself to be a bit of an advisor, and it sounds like she does have some followers.
Then she told me the story of a woman who has now died. She died of Leukemia, but she didn't specifically state if it was from blood refusal. The woman had really wanted to make the right decision, regarding blood fractions. Miss K said she kept trying to get her to give her advice, but that Miss K would only tell her the facts (along with some subconscious suggestions, I'm sure). Miss K made the memorable statement, in a very humble voice (not being a smart aleck at all), "If I had told this woman to eat dog poop, she would have done it..."
So, that was most of her introduction of herself and the value that she has imparted to others through their studies with her. cha-ching
Let's begin...
I had prepared myself, by reading Wilbur Lingle's commentary and suggestions for questions to use with the Bible Teach book. Having *almost* fallen for this once already, and now coming back to read this book again years later, it is a pretty fascinating read. The manipulative way the book presents itself, while telling you that the answers are "in the Bible," is brilliant. I have serious doubts about the accuracy of this publication. She knows it, as I have told her so.
In our previous conversation, she asked me if I'd ever seen that book. I told her I'd studied the whole thing already. She said, "It's called, 'What does the Bible REALLY teach?' What do you think you will learn from this book?"
I replied, "This book tells you what Jehovah's Witnesses believe the Bible teaches." She prodded me a few times, until I asked her if the book was "inspired," and then dropped it, only to reintroduce the idea at our next meeting together. After doing a little more research, I decided to let her try to show me that book again, and that I would use the opportunity to ask the questions that are being avoided in the text of that book. I was feeling ready to actually question the validity of that book, before we even started reading it, but she pulled another fast one on me...
She said, "So, what made you decide to study this book?" I don't know why, I hadn't expected that question. I paused and said, "Well, you have presented the idea a few times. After I got the book out again and looked at it, I thought it would be better than jumping all over the place in our topics of discussion. This way, I can know what you are going to say next, and be more prepared with my quetions."
THEN, she almost seemed like she *didn't* want to use that book! She made a subtle disclaimer about it (as she mixes in these little admissions regularly, that she knows people have pointed out flaws and inconsistencies in the Watchtower literature), and said, "We do want to study what the BIBLE actually teaches... I'm not saying that this book ISN'T TRUE..." (trailing off a little). I said, "I agree with that!" with a slight chuckle.
I will present my questions about this book, when we start getting into some of the claims they make. I have a small stack of books that other Christian people have given me, unsolicited, in an attempt to help me understand the Bible. Each of those books has the author's name and credentials clearly displayed. Who wrote the Bible Teach book, and how do we know it is a factual publication? Why not give the credentials of the author?
At this point, she opened with a prayer. This was the first time she has prayed with me... a typical JW prayer... vague, long-winded and following a formula. (interesting note here... during both her opening and closing prayer, my German Shepherd started barking loudly from the other room, but she kept praying. The dog was quiet most of the time, but would occasionally decide to bark at the sound of her never-ending voice. I thought it was interesting that she barked for the prayers. Our dog barks, and Miss K is scared of her. I wonder what went through her mind when the dog was barking during her prayer).
Finally, we actually opened the book. We skimmed past the subliminal images and the mini-prophecies on the introductory page, and she went right to Chapter 1, "What Is the Truth About God?" She read the title and had me read the first 2 paragraphs. We didn't follow the questions that are presented in the footnotes, but she had some of her own questions, and so did I.
She asked me, "Why do people stop asking questions?" I replied that they probably have various reasons, but that some people think it is just easier to give in and give up questioning. They find comfort in letting someone else find the answers for them. She looked at me blankly for a split second.
Then I said, "I find this introduction to the book quite ironic, actually." She looked puzzled. "Why don't Jehovah's Witnesses ask more questions?" She stammered for a second, but then claimed that they DO ask questions! "Oh, we sure do!"
She went on and read the next 3 paragraphs. Instead of asking me the assigned question, " What are some of the most important questions we can ask in life, and why should we seek the answers?" (what a pompous question... Tell ME what questions I should ask... Haha, yeah ok) She started answering it herself, using the example that some people think it is impossible to have a close relationship with God. "That God is just some big computer in the sky, sending down orders and judgment, punishing people. They don't believe that you can HAVE a close relationship with God."
At this point, I went back to paragraph 3. "... And some decide that such questions are best left to religious leaders and teachers. What about you?" And she startled a little, like she was realizing she was supposed to be asking me, not answering for me. I read the sentence out loud, slowly, and looked at her. She said, "Oh yeah, what about you?" I said, "What about you? Do you believe that we should get our answers from religious leaders?" She said no, and bounced it back to me. I said, "No, I think you know I don't... but from an outside perspective, it often appears that JW's follow their leaders, over what they Bible says."
From here, she went into a little diatribe about "Bible principles." She asked me, "How does God feel about abortion?" I said he hates it. It is murder. She said, "You won't find that in the Bible! Abortion is not mentioned in the Bible." I said, "Thou shalt not kill. Killing unborn babies is murder." She said, "but scientists claim that is not killing, that it is not a person." I disagreed with that statement, but was not going to go into a debate about abortion.
Then she went on to say something about the feeding of the Greek speaking widows, and how they were not getting their food. "Do you think it mattered, if they delivered the food to them, or if they made them come and get the food? It was clear that they were instructed to feed them, but did it matter the WAY in which they got their food?" I was thrown by this strange reasoning.
I said, "But when your religious leaders go beyond what Jesus taught, or what it says in the Bible, who do you listen to? The Governing Body, or the actual instructions of Jesus Christ?"
She took me to Acts 17:11 " Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·ni′ca, for they accepted the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so." ... "What does that verse say?"
I said that the people examined the scriptures, to see if what they were hearing was true.
Miss K, "Right, AND what does it say, about how they received the word?" My Bible said, "with readiness of mind," and she added, "or here it says with 'the greatest eagerness.' So, the people were EAGER to hear the word, or the TRUTH, and then to prove it was true, by examining the scriptures."
I said something like, "Yes, and I have a difficult time understanding why JW's are so eager to change their beliefs and adjust their understanding, when God does not change, and Jesus is the Truth. The truth does not change."
And, here it is... "But the Bible DOES say that the light will get brighter in the time of the end! Jesus told his disciples that even though they didn't understand everything now, they would understand it later." I just furrowed my eyebrows at that. (Another one of those, "I should have said..." moments)
She then brought up an interesting question to me, in regards to another Christian friend I have. She asked me, "Your friend, who studies the Bible with her husband... the one you told me about, who does not celebrate holidays. Why don't they celebrate holidays?"
I told her it was because of things they discovered when they were examining the scriptures for themselves. She said, "Ok, so they found something in the Bible that disagreed with what they were doing, and they made changes? What is the difference between their doing that, and the JW's adjusting their understanding, when they make discoveries in the Bible?" I thought that was actually a good point, and I told her I hadn't thought of it that way before.
Of course, the obvious difference here, is that my friend and her husband made these decisions on their own, after reading the scriptures. They were not instructed to make these changes, by some American religioius leaders in New York. The instructions and interpretations that are sent down from the Tower to the MILLIONS of people, are accepted, without question, even when it could mean death.
I asked her what happens when you disagree with a new interpretation or an adjustment? Do you follow the religious leaders, or do you follow the Bible? She is unable to make the connection in her brain. She just knows that they are right. She said, "When they make adjustments, or we are given a new or clearer understanding, I usually just think... 'Why didn't we believe that all along?' I hear it, I check the scriptures, and realize they are right. For me, and I can only speak for myself of course, I am glad that we keep adjusting our path, so we can follow what the Bible really says."
I said, "What if you DID have questions, or didn't agree, after checking the new teaching in the Bible? Are you allowed to ask questions?" She said that questions are encouraged. "Even if they are doubts about what the society is saying?" She said, "of course. We are supposed to ask questions." I was not convinced, but I do not have any personal experience of this, aside from the time we asked questions of our previous teacher (and he flipped his lid, went into a little "fit" and refused to answer the questions that we had, because they came from APOSTATES! FORNICATORS! LIARS!)
She knows about this episode, since I have told her. I said, "That was not our experience, and we were not even baptized. If you are a baptized JW, I get the impression that you have to agree 100%, without question. My mom does not feel like she can ask questions, and she seems to feel ashamed that she has questions at all. After you are baptized, you are expected to follow the company line, even when it doesn't make sense, or it goes beyond the teachings of Jesus Christ."
She disagreed. She kept saying that it was ok to ask questions, and that my mom should ask her questions. I said, "Won't she get into trouble, if she asks the wrong questions?" She gave me a surprised look, "No! Of course not! Why would she get in trouble for asking questions?" I said something to the effect that, people are not allowed to disagree with the governing body, or they could be punished... "or even disfellowshipped?"
She then asked me, "How do you get disfellowshipped?" I said I didn't know for sure, but I asked her if there was an honorable way to leave the organization, without being cut off from family and friends who are still JW's. She said, "Yes, you just stop going."
I said, "And then they disfellowship you, or ... ??"
She said, "The majority of the time, the people who leave, at least in my observation, these are the people who don't want to WORK. They either don't want to participate in the preaching work, or they don't like the idea of submitting to authority. The people who get disfellowshipped, do it to themselves. They make the choice to be disfellowshipped."
She went on to say, "Disfellowshipping is a loving arrangement. When someone stops wanting to please God, and they start doing things that separate them from God, they need a wake-up call. When they get disfellowshipped, and sometimes they actually think that is what they want, they realize, 'Oh, wait a minute... this isn't what I had in mind!' Often, this will encourage them to come back. It is done out of LOVE." (sickest kind of love I've ever seen)
I said, "So it is out of love, that parents stop talking to their children, and vice versa? What if a child gets baptized very young, and then grows up and decides that the JW life is not for them. The child might even go to a Christian church, or just decide to follow the bible, instead of the religious leaders of the JW's. Will they be disfellowshipped?"
She again said, "How do you get disfellowshipped?" I did not claim to know any details... I'm not revealing exactly how much apostate information I've been reading.
I rephrased, "So, if you leave, and your mother is still a JW, is she allowed to speak to you?"
"That is up to your mother's conscience."
I asked her, "Has anyone in your family ever been disfellowshipped?" She said no. She said, "My parents left for a little while, but they weren't disfellowshipped."
I asked her if she was born-in to the JW's. She said the JW's came to their door when she was about 5 years old. Her baby brother had died as an infant, and her grief-stricken mother was getting very poor advice and "comfort" from her Baptist pastor and Christian friends. "The JW's came to the door, and my mother invited them in. She said, 'I have some questions for you.' "
She told me she has 2 brothers who never became JW's. They all communicate, and their family ties are intact. Her parents ended up getting divorced, after the death of her brother, and specific events that followed, and that were never forgiven. It was a sad story, but she claims to have a happy extended family.
------------------ We finally wrapped up, and she closed in prayer (basically a repeat of the opening prayer). She actually said, "Would you like to close in prayer?" and I said ok... and for a split second, I thought she was asking ME to pray! But I think she realized the misconception, and started praying before I could take a breath or even close my Bible.
We scheduled our next appointment for 3 weeks from now. My family is going on a vacation, and then hers is going to the International Convention in Detroit.
I asked her if she was looking forward to it. She said, "Oh yes, we always do. My husband and I always stay an extra day, so we can enjoy the hotel and relax together..." and I wrinkled my nose, and said, "... enjoy DETROIT!" with a chuckle. She said, "Yeah, well we aren't going there to see Detroit, obviously." I said, "Yeah, definitely NOT a good year for Detroit."
She said, "We don't go there to see the city. We of course go for the convention." She showed me her name badge. (conspicuously did NOT give me an invitation) She said, "You can download the entire program on jw.org. I like to do that, and then go through it and try to figure out at what points they are going to give us a new book, or some new material. Then I go through and put little stars next to the talks that I think are going to be the best ones. OF COURSE, they are ALL good... but different people relate to different topics, you know..."
I didn't admit that I'd already seen the entire program, and have even read through the outline and descriptions of what is really going to be said during those wonderful talks. I found it interesting that she didn't even mention that we could come. I also did not mention that we'd been to one of those before. I probably shoud have... I could have told her how CULTISH it all seems, to someone who is not indoctrinated. BORING!
So, we will be seeing each other after we both leave reality and come back.
I am going with my husband and kids, on a dream vacation escape to one of the precious jewels of Michigan: Mackinac Island. No cars, no rush, the sounds of horses and waves... being SERVED and treated like royalty, while also exploring history and nature with my curious and adventurous children. I can't WAIT! (already dreading my return home... haha)
She is going to the slums of Michigan, the deepest bowels of poverty and crime in our state. She gets to fight throngs of people, heavy traffic, dodge bums, march in step and listen to long, chastising speeches, reminding her that she will never be good enough. At least she will get that extra night in the hotel...
I told her we could compare stories when we get back. I wonder if she will share anything that she "learned."