It is very disconcerting that christians like saved-JW can't think of a reason not to steal, murder and rape if there is no god.
Richard Dawkins defends mild pedophilia, says it does not cause lasting harm
by chrisuk 320 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
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Saved_JW
I drew a clear distinction between "absolute" morality and "objective" morality that has NOTHING to do with anybody's personal preference.
This is the answer to all of your previous post
Whats the difference between absolute and objective morality. I need to know this so I can actually dialogue.
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cofty
Whats the difference between absolute and objective morality. I need to know this so I can actually dialogue - saved_JW
Of course you do. That didn't stop you preaching in your last post.
I already defined "absolute" morality. It is the equivalent of Plato's essential triangle and just as silly.
What thesits really mean is that "good" is anything their particular god says is good. In the OT Yahweh commands all sorts of disgusting actions including infanticide, kidnap, rape and slavery.
It is ethics by divine fiat. It is to pretend that morality depends on the whims of a capricious god.
This leads to foolish positions like sanctions against consenting adult homosexual relationships. The theist feels no need to explain why such things are bad; it is sufficient that god said so.
Rejecting "absolute" morality does not leave us to fall back on personal preference. Ethics are not like choosing between strawberry or chocolate ice-cream.
Objective morality is about how we think about how to minimise the suffering - or promote the well-being - of conscious creatures.
Homosexuality is not wrong unless you can show that it leads to suffering. Pedophila is wrong - objectively wrong - because it does immense harm. The same is true of many of the things your god approved of in your holy book.
There are moral facts - rights and wrongs to be discoverd and wrestled with. There are no easy answers. We need to grow up and realise that life is not so simple and there is no sky-daddy who gives us simplistic rules for life.
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Simon
There are things that are good and things that are evil and they will forever be that, regardless of whether someone makes a claim about some deity's opinion on the matter one way or the other.
In the same way that slavery and beating people is, was, and always will be a bad thing, regardless of whether any government or group decrees it otherwise.
BTW: If you believe that we need a god to tell us what is right and wrong ... then how does that tally with the bible account where we're supposedly now being punished because Adam and Eve became like god, able to determine what was right and wrong.
If we aren't able to determine it then why the need for the ransom? The whole pile of matches falls apart pretty quickly IMO.
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frankiespeakin
I agree context of the word morality determines the shade of meaning and one has to know the writers intent. I agree their is "No Morals Out There" and it to be purely a human construct/veiwpoint with no universiality to it.
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Simon
As much as I cringe at the possibility of this happening, I have no doubt that in another 10 years, my moral objection to this practice will be considered bigoted.
I very much doubt that. Barbarism tends to happen when theists are put in charge but thankfully religion is now on the retreat in most civilised & educated parts of the world. It's the sort of backward "progress" that some repugnant religion would impose on the poor people unfortunate to find themselves under it's rule.
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DJS
Saved_Jw
You haven't been paying attention. We have repeatedly shared empirical data illustrating that the more secular and atheistic a state, region or nation is, the more functional it is in almost every manner. Pick a dysfunciton, whether its gun play, homicide, divorce, drugs, smoking, alcohol abuse, car wrecks, spouse abuse, lack of education, low IQs - and they are more prevalent among religious states, regions and nations. There are strong correlations between atheism and:
1. The happiest countries in the world
2. The smartest (highest IQs) countries in the world
3. The most functional societies in the world
4. The most educated societies in the world
We have said this over and over, including sharing very good empirical data. And yet you spew that without your god - and left to atheists - we will go to hell in a handbasket. NOTHING could be further from the data.
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Saved_JW
Objective morality is about how we think about how to minimise the suffering - or promote the well-being - of conscious creatures
what objective source did you use to define objective morality cofty? Is this a universal law? or did you just make that up?
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jwfacts
Saved-JW, your answers are ideological but irrational.
The problem I have is when somebody deny's a universal moral absolute then at the same time, judges somebody elses moral opinion [be that sexual or otherwise]
The problem with such a statement is that no one knows what that universal moral absolute is. The morals of the Bible differ dramatically between books, and particularly between the Old and New Testament. Christian religions cannot agree on what that absolute moral is, and even the Watchtower changes its definitions of morals on a constant basis, despite all claiming to rely on the same basis of morals.
Without a universal absolute, we have no foundation to say that Pedophilia is or isnt wrong. Its simply an action prompted by the emotions of one or both parties involved.
Actually, science is in the best position to determine if pedophilia is wrong or not. It can study the effects and provide a reasoned answer on the damage of each particular aspect. The morality that is formed by religion is based on the ever changing beliefs of the prevailing culture at the time.