by Bart Belteshassur 100 Replies latest watchtower bible
Everyone agrees Babylon fell in 539 BCE and its King killed.
Jeremiah 25:12 states quite simply that the King of Babylon would be brought to account at the end of the 70 years.
Thus the 70 year period ended in 539 BCE, not 537 BCE as the WT claim, so must have started in 609 BCE NOT 607 BCE.
There is no need to prove when Jerusalem fell, it has no significance.
George
They only way you can do it with just the bible is showing Jeremiah 25:11-12 and chapter 29; 10 to establish the 70 years that ended at 539 calculate back and you get 609. But unfortunately this is where the problem is, history shows the last major city of the Assyrians Haran was destroyed that year ending any hope of their empire but the bible does not confirm it. This is what the bible writers were talking about though.
Thus the 70 year period ended in 539 BCE, not 537 BCE as the WT claim, so must have started in 609 BCE NOT 607 BCE.
There is no need to prove when Jerusalem fell, it has no significance.
When you lose 607 you lose 1914.
Simple as that.
And that blows the JW theology out of the water.
The WTS states that Jerusalem fell in 607 BCE two years before Nebuchadnezzar even was enthroned over Babylon
upon his father's death Nabopolassar.
2 Kings 25:8-9 states "And in the ... nineteenth year of King Nebuchadnezzar ... the servant of the king of Babylon,
came to Jerusalem. And he proceeded to burn the house of Jehovah"
Prior to the final destruction of Jerusalem there were a series of Kings placed by Nebuchadnezzar in Jerlusalem
right up to to last one being Zedekiah who revoltted which resulted in the finall invasion and destrection of the city
and Temple.
Calculation ... 605 BCE. + 19yrs = 586 BCE.
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Nebuchadnezzar had ascended to the throne of Babylon on the
death of his father Nabopolassor in September 605BC after defeating the Egyptian
armies under Pharaoh Neco at the famous battle of Carchemish in May and June of
that year. (Mighty Egypt was permanently weakened at that battle and Babylon
moved into ascendancy as the greatest gentile power in the ancient world).
Daniel, and others were taken captive by Nebuchadnezzar in the same year (2
Kings 24:1)
The Chronicle does not refer to Jerusalem directly but mentions a "City of Iaahudu", interpreted to be "City of Judah". The Chronicle states:
In the seventh year (of Nebuchadnezzar-599 BC.) in the month Chislev (Nov/Dec) the king of Babylon assembled his army, and after he had invaded the land of Hatti (Syria/Palestine) he laid siege to the city of Judah. On the second day of the month of Adar (16 March) he conquered the city and took the king (Jeconiah) prisoner. He installed in his place a king (Zedekiah) of his own choice, and after he had received rich tribute, he sent forth to Babylon. [ 6 ]
Prior to publication of the Babylonian Chronicles by Donald Wiseman in 1956, [ 7 ] Thiele had determined from the biblical texts that Nebuchadnezzar's initial capture of Jerusalem occurred in the spring of 597 BC, [ 8 ] while other scholars, including Albright, more frequently dated the event to 598 BC. [ 9 ] This has been compared to dates in the book of Ezekiel are given according to the year of captivity of Jeconiah (i.e. the first fall of Jerusalem).
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So from what is recorded in the bible and by referencing outside archaeological sources we can see that the desolation was probably only 47 years to 50 years + or - (586 BCE - 539 BCE)
Why did the WTS leaders want to retain the significance of 1914 even when Russell's Pyramidolgy measurements got pushed aside ?
Most likely due the previous heavy predictions put forth prior to 1914 toward that year and all the things which were to happen as well world War I broke out to help it along.
1914 and all the things follow that year had become a huge marketing doctrine to help attract people to the WTS's literature.
Marky mark and the funky bunch
The Babylonian Chronicles give 2 Adar (16 March), 597 BCE, as the date that Nebuchadnezzar captured Jerusalem, thus putting an end to the reign of Jehoaichin. Zedekiah's installation as king by Nebuchadnezzar can therefore be firmly dated to the early spring of 597 BCE. Historically there has been considerable controversy over the date when Jerusalem was captured the second time and Zedekiah's reign came to an end. There is no dispute about the month: it was the summer month of Tammuz (Jeremiah 52:6). The problem has been to determine the year. It was noted above that Albright preferred 587 BCE and Thiele advocated 586 BCE, and this division among scholars has persisted until the present time. If Zedekiah's years are by accession counting, whereby the year he came to the throne was considered his "zero" year and his first full year in office, 597/596, was counted as year one, Zedekiah's eleventh year, the year the city fell, would be 587/586. Since Judean regnal years were measured from Tishri in the fall, this would place the end of his reign and the capture of the city in the summer of 586 BCE. Accession counting was the rule for most, but not all, of the kings of Judah, whereas "non-accession" counting was the rule for most, but not all, of the kings of Israel.
The publication of the Babylonian Chronicles in 1956, however, gave evidence that the years of Zedekiah were measured in a non-accession sense. This reckoning makes year 598/597 BCE, the year Zedekiah was installed by Nebuchadnezzar according to Judah's Tishri-based calendar, to be year "one," so that the fall of Jerusalem in his eleventh year would have been in year 588/587 BCE, i.e. in the summer of 587 BCE. The Bablyonian Chronicles allow the fairly precise dating of the capture of Jehoiachin and the start of Zedekiah's reign, and they also give the accession year of Nebuchadnezzar's successor Amel-Marduk (Evil Merodach) as 562/561 BCE, which was the 37th year of Jehoiachin's captivity according to 2 Kings 25:27. These Babylonian records related to Jehoiachin's reign are consistent with the fall of the city in 587 but not in 586, as explained in the Jehoiachin/Jeconiah article, thus vindicating Albright's date. Nevertheless, scholars who assume that Zedekiah's reign should be calculated by accession reckoning will continue to adhere to the 586 date, and so the infobox contains this as an alternative.
Folks, be careful here! What did Jesus say concerning ascertaining times and seasons? Why is it so important to you to ascertain times and seasons? In whose jurisdiction do these things belong? Whose conduct is being imitated by wanting to ascertain dates?
At Matthew 24:36-51 Jesus provided his disciples some very valuable information (and warning) concerrning his return or presence that appears to have been ignored by the so-called believers.
At Matthew 24:36 Jesus made it very clear that no one has such knowlege other than the Most High God. Jesus said neither himself or the angels have knowledge of such things.
"Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father."
A few verses down at Matthew 24:42, Jesus says the time period of his return is not knowable by human agency.
"Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming."
Thus, deriving the year 1914 from 607 BCE or any other date or method devised by man would be false and misleading. It simply is not knowable.
For those who play the semantic game concerning the word "day" Jesus clears that up as well at Acts 1:7:
"It does not belong to YOU to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction;"
Sadly, many are obessessed with trying to derive and establish dates that they have completely forgotten or ignored what the Master Christ has said. They prefer to view human agency as the authority and look to it to provide them with an "official" position. This shows unfaithfulness in God and Christ.
At Matthew 24:43 Jesus said:
"If the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into."
That the WTBTS has long established that 1914 is the year in which Christs invisible presence occurred, there is no need to be watchful. During the teaching and wide dissemination of 1914 up to the present - a period of slumber - a thief has broken into the Masters household and rearranged and removed his belongings (teachings) and replaced them with something else.
Jesus did not tell his slaves to look for dates of his arrival. He told them to be watchful because YOU do not know on what day your Lord is coming.
There developed an evill slave within the Master's household and it was this evil slave who ignored the Lords instruction and became interested in dates. How so?
We read at Matthew 24:48-49 that this slave would beat his "fellow slaves" because he felt that his Master was delaying. If this slave felt that the Master was delaying, he must have been expecting his arrival at a certain time.
The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society has published long before the arrival of 1914 that it would be the year in which Christs invisible presence would occur. Many other events - according to the Watch Tower would occur based upon the foundation of that year. Sadly, those events will not take place and the WT will fall flat on its face leaving many JWs in the congregations below disoriented and confused. Many are confused even now.
As for the faithful slaves within Jesus household, they remembered what their Master told them at Matthew 24:36 and Matthew 24:42 and will not allow themselves to be carried away by the tide of ascertaining and establishing dates of their Masters return.
The Watch Tower organization will turn ugly and will proverbially beat the faithful slaves (those not believing their established dates and the things taught upon that false foundation). These beatings come in the form of expulsion from "the organization," a labeling of being troublemakers, unfaithful, rebellious and apostate. The WT organization will be the source of much mental anguish for the faithful slaves.
These "beatings" are already occurring on a small scale and will worsen over time; especially when the events built upon the 1914 date do not happen.
No serious follower of Christ should be obessessed and consumed with dates based on anyone's calendar. It should suffice one to "be watchful" (being faithful) as Christ told us to be.
Do not be carried away by all that is happening at present: The conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, the airstrikes in Iraq, the Ebola epidemic, and what is happening in the Ukraine. These are distractions. Keep your senses. These things have nothing to do with Christs return.
Trust The Most High God and do not concern yourself with what YOU cannot know. You waste your time and dig a deeper hole for yourself. You will only find yourself disoriented and confused.
And, why would anyone view a human organization as an authority on the subject anyway.
A human organization says "it knows" when the Lord returned. Jesus says "YOU do not know on what day your Lord is coming."
So who do YOU believe? Who is YOUR authority? (Luke 9:35)
I'm afraid that you cannot disprove 607 BCE to an indoctrinated JW. Any evidence you present - no matter how compelling - will simply be rejected by him as being either a lie or in error. Indoctrinated JWs value loyalty to the organization more than they value evidence. As far as indoctrinated JWs go, any evidence that contradicts 607 BCE must be in error - it just has to be, end of story!
Evidence means nothing to a closed-minded and unreasonable man who has another agenda which he values more than actual truth. Evidence will only work if/when the individual is able to think with an open and objective mind, free of the shackles of fear and misguided loyalty that have been placed on it by Watchtower propaganda.
When you lose 607 you lose 1914.
Simple as that.
Excactly, this is why this discussion is so important.
Thank you all for your contributions, it has put my mind back into gear and I think I have worked out what is needed. It is obivous that arguements based on chronology have no influence on JW's conditioned by WT thinking. Unfortunately whilst the arguements from Jerimiah avoid the need for fixed secular dates they do involve introducing authorities external to the WT and as has been said doomed to failure. The problem can only be resolved by finding agreed WT doctrine which contridicts the WT chronology.
In order to achieve that objective I have been considering which area's of their explaination can be attacked that have not already been noted in the thread.
To that end does anyone know of WT commentry info in relation to Haggai, specifically indentifying "Darius the King"?
Is there any further comments which relate to Isiah 61 and the liberation of the Jews apart of the Isiah Prophecy Book?
Thanks again BB
