Can anyone disprove 607 BCE date using only the NWT and WT literature?

by Bart Belteshassur 100 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  baldeagle

  Marked
• 

  AnnOMaly

  Bart,

  The Darius mentioned in Haggai is Darius I (522-486 BCE). WTS and conventional chronologies coincide here.

  *** Insight Vol. 1, p. 583 Darius ***

  It is particularly with regard to the rebuilding of the temple at Jerusalem that Darius Hystaspis figures in the Bible record. The temple foundation was laid in 536 B.C.E., but rebuilding work came under ban in 522 B.C.E. and “continued stopped until the second year of the reign of Darius” (520 B.C.E.). (Ezr 4:4, 5, 24) During this year the prophets Haggai and Zechariah stirred up the Jews to renew the construction, and the work got under way again. (Ezr 5:1, 2; Hag 1:1, 14, 15; Zec 1:1)

  *** Insight Vol. 1, p. 1019 Haggai, Book of ***

  Date and Circumstances. The four messages recorded by Haggai were delivered at Jerusalem within about a four-month period in the second year of Persian King Darius Hystaspis (520 B.C.E.), the book apparently being completed in 520 B.C.E. (Hag 1:1; 2:1, 10, 20) Zechariah was prophesying for the same purpose during Haggai’s prophetic activity.—Ezr 5:1, 2; 6:14.

  *** Insight Vol 2, p. 613 Persia, Persians ***

  The temple work then lay idle “until the second year of the reign of Darius the king of Persia.”—Ezr 4:24.

  Darius I (called Darius Hystaspis or Darius the Great) evidently engineered or instigated the slaying of the one occupying the Persian throne and gained the throne for himself. During his rule the temple work at Jerusalem was renewed with royal approval, and the temple was completed during his sixth year of rule (early in 515 B.C.E.). (Ezr 6:1-15)

  Not sure where you're going with Isa. 61.
• 

  Witness My Fury

  The WTS cant arrive at 539 (the agreed pivotal date) without relying on external "secular" sources, there is no internal absolute dating in the bible that allows anyone to date this thing, so they have to go external even for that.

  Off the top of my head, there's zechariah 7: 1-5 that mentions 70 years (since the temples destruction), but it is in the reign of Darius (518) so the bible doesnt allow for it to be 607 just based on that one verse. (518 +70 = 587ish)

  But as said above, cult mind control etc wont allow some jw cult drones to accept any amount of evidence.
• 

  Bart Belteshassur

  There are two arguements I have found that contridict the WT calculation, the first involoves their biblically inspired best guess for the date of the return, and the second specifically times the fall of Jerusalrm with the fall of Babylon. I have used the reasoning put forward in the kc pp. 186-189 Appendix to Chapter 14 as a ref.

  Firstly to quote the kc the WT say " Ezra reported that the 70years ran until " the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia", who issued a decree allowing the Jews to return to their homeland. (Ezra 1: 1-4; 2 Chronicles 36: 21-23)". If this statement is correct then they admit the 70 years concluded in the first year of Cyrus and not his second year as they claim.

  The kc continues "If Cyrus' decree came late in his first regnal year, the Jews could have easily be back in their homeland by the seventh month (Tishri) as Ezra 3:1 says;". This statment is totally false, Ezra does not say this.

  Ezra 1:11 states " All the utensils................Every thing Sheshbazzar brought up, along with the bringing up of the exiled people out of Babylon to Jerusalem." This clearly states that Sheshbazzar came witha group of exiles, but specifically only to Jerusalem not to there cities in Judea. Ezra then continues in 2:1-2 " And these were the sons....... each one to his own city; 2 those who came with Zerubbabel, Jeshua ........... Baanah." Chapter 2 continues to list all the exiles who where " the sons ". Sheshbazzar is not listed as the person the exile came with or that he was with this group of returnees lead by Zerubbabel. This group of exiles is not the same as the ones mentioned in Ezra 1: 11. IT is therefore this second group which is refered to in 3:1, and chapter 3 goes to date the year of this returnig group.

  The date is proved in the book of Haggai 1:9 " There was a looking.......... for what reason?" is the utterance of Jehovah of armies. " By reason of my house that is waste......." This was dated to the the second year of Darius in the 6th month. There is no foundation stone here as is made clear in ch 2: 18 "......from this day and forward, from the twenty-fourth of the ninth, from the day that the foundation of the temple of Jehovah was laid;" This is also date to the 2nd year of Cyrus in 2:10. Therefore we can state that the foundation of the temple was not laided by Zerubbabel in the 2nd year of Darius.

  In Ezra 3: 10 " When the builders laid the foundation of the temple......." This happens after 3:8" And in the second year of their coming to the house .....in the second month." It then follows that the " seventh month" refered to in Ezra 3:1 is the seventh month of the first year of Darius.

  So as the WT falsely claim that this is the seventh month of the second year of Cyrus but it is proved that it the second of Darius. As the WT do date this as 520BCE, the 70 years now starts in 590BCE, or there is no specific date which can be determined for the first return, and therefore neither can the date of the fall of Jerusalem be determined by this route.

  However the date of the fall of Jerusalem can be determined from the fall of Babylon from the bible. ( I shall argue this that will give a date of 586BCE for the fall of Jerusalem OK AnnOmally, it works if argued a more complex way for both 587 and 586.)

  Firstly we all agree that babylon fell to Cyrus before the start of his first regnal year. Isa 61: 1-2 states that " The spirit of the sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, for the reason that Jehovah has anointed me to tell good news to the meek ones. He has sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to those taken captive............... 2 to proclaim the year of goodwill on the part Jehovah................mourning ones." In the Isiah Prophecy book although this prophecy mainly concerns Jesus it says that the first fulfillment of the prophecy takes place when the Jews were released from captivity in Babylon. The proclaimation of liberty is the same as the liberty proclaimed in Leviticus 25: 10 " And you must sanctify the fiftieth year and proclaim liberty in the land to all its inhabitants. It will become a Jubilee for you must return each one to his possessions and you should return each one to his family." From Leviticus 9 this liberty was declared on the day of atonement the 10th day of the seventh month.

  So not only can we say that this proclaimation of Cyrus prophecied in Isa 61 can be dated to the 10th of seventh month in the 1st year of Cyrus, but that his decree of Ezra 1:1 which includes the return of the temple utensils, has the same date. Now if find the date of the previous proclaimation and we have that date it must be 49 years before in accordance with the law of Jehovah in Leviticus.

  The previous proclaimation is made by Jehovah himself, and therefore as he is can not lie, we can be certain that from this liberty to the Cyrus liberty will be 49 years. Jeremiah 34 actual gives us two proclaimations of liberty at verse 8 "The word......King Zedekiah concluded a covenant with all the people who were in Jerusalem to proclaim to them liberty....." and then in verse 17 " Therefore this what Jehovah has said, " You yourselves have not obeyed me in keeping on proclaiming liberty each one to his brother and each one to his companion. Here I am proclaiming to you a liberty, is the utterance of Jehovah................earth." Again these two events must have taken place on the 10th of the seventh month as before.

  As these events take place during the seige of Jerusalem, there is only one date this can be, between the 10th of the tenth month in the 9th year of Zedekiah to the 9th of the fourth month of the 11th year of Zedekiah namely 10th of the seventh of the 10th year of Zedekiah. Therefore from the 10/X/one of Cyrus back to 10/X/ten of Kedekian is 49 years. If the WT stick to the 538BCE date for the first of Cyrus then the tenth years of Zedekiah must be 587BCE and thus Jerusalem fell on the 9/IV/eleventh of Zedekiah which is 586BCE.

  BB
• 

  menrov

  Island Man, I guess you are correct. Regardless the official doctrine one is challenging with scriptural proof, most JW's will disregard. They will say: you are wrong, you have to wait for insight, pray for more knowledge, in due course you will see etc.

  Well, so be it.
• 

  Stormcrow

  This is not a scriptural source, but has anyone read The Gentile Times Reconsidered by Carl Olof Jonsson? Or does anyone remember the shirty comment in a KM circa 1980 about, " some brothers are even writing their own chronologies?" This book is one of the finest pieces of research I've come across on the subject and the Swedish brother's story, briefly outlined in the preface will come as no surprise to most of us. I highly recommend this book.

  PS Yes of course he was disfellowshipped. The dirty dealings of the society in this case really disgusted me.
• 

  jwfacts

  I don't see where you are going with all this. If JWs cared if 607 was correct, then secular proof is enough, since secular proof is required for 539, upon which 607 is based. Their belief is not based on logic, it is based on the want to believe regardless of logic.

  "It is important to understand that in most Bible-based cults, although the member is aggressively taught doctrine, it is not the doctrine that holds him in the group. It is the sense that the group is God's true people, a feeling cultivated by techniques of mind control. Thus, to engage the cult member in a Biblical argument or discussion is often futile." Stephen Hassan, Releasing the Bonds p.145

  JWs are not in it for the doctrine. They are in it for friends, for Jehovah, for paradise. No amount of Scripture will convince them that the Governing Body is wrong whilst they want to believe it.
• 

  Bart Belteshassur

  jw facts - I totally agree with your comments and I agree with the point that JW's are not interested in the truth of scripture. However if that is the case then the idea of trying to show the error in the doctrine by using secular details which we all know they will dismiss is a pointless endeavour. But as they profess to get everthing from Bible truth and their own NWT it is far better to find a way of proving them in error using only the Bible and their own doctrine. If a JW does not except the truth of the NWT or there own GB's literature then you have at least made ever effort possible to educate them and know that they are what your are saying they are.

  By the way what did you think of the arguements, are valid?

  BB
• 

  Terry

  STEP ONE:

  List the SAME information as that printed and published by the Watchtower.

  Nebuchadnezzar -- 43 years

  Evil-Merodach -- 2 years

  Neriglissar -- 4 years

  Labashi-Marduk -- assassinated within 9 months

  Nabonidus -- 17 years

  STEP TWO:

  Beginwith the Watchtower's date of 539 for the fall of Babylon

  count backwards through the Kings of Babylon for each year of their reigns,

  you arrive at 586/587 for Nebuchadnezzar's 18 th /19 th year, when he destroyed Jerusalem.

  __________________________________________________________

  Using Watchtower data for the neo-Babylonian kings and lengths of their reigns, there is NO BASIS for an extra king or for an extra 20 years.

  _________________________________________________________

  FROM ALLEYMOM:

  Babylon falls to Cyrus the Persia -- 539 BCE
  Nabonidus -- 17 years
  Labashi-Marduk -- 3 months (WT says less than 9 months)
  Neriglissar -- 4 years
  Evil-Merodach -- 2 years
  Nebuchadnezzar -- 43 years

  Nabonidus -- 17 years

  Year 17 = 539 BCE
  16 = 540
  15 = 541
  14 = 542
  13 = 543
  12 = 544
  11 = 545
  10 = 546
  9 = 547
  8 = 548
  7 = 549
  6 = 550
  5 = 551
  4 = 552
  3 = 553
  2 = 554
  1 = 555
  0 = accession year = 556

  Labashi-Marduk -- less than a year 3 months in 556

  Neriglissar -- 4 years 4 = 556
  3 = 557
  2 = 558
  1 = 559
  0 = accession year = 560

  Evil-Merodach -- 2 years 2 = 560
  1 = 561
  0 = accession year = 562

  Nebuchadnezzar -- 43 years 43 = 562 BCE
  42 = 563
  41 = 564
  40 = 565
  39 = 566
  38 = 567
  37 = 568
  36 = 569
  35 = 570
  34 = 571
  33 = 572
  32 = 573
  31 = 574
  30 = 575
  29 = 576
  28 = 577
  27 = 578
  26 = 579
  25 = 580
  24 = 581
  23 = 582
  22 = 583
  21 = 584
  20 = 585 19 = 586 BCE
  18 = 587 BCE

  So Jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 BCE by Nebuchadnezzar.
• 

  redvip2000

  Also,

  Jeremiah 44 is placed at the desctruction of Jerusalem.

  On verse 30 it describes the Pharaoh which was in power at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem, which is pharaoh Hophra.

  What is the timeframe for his reign? 589 - 570 bc well within the range of 587 bc. In 607bc this pharaoh was about 2 years old.

  Or we can just re-write Egyptian history in order to accomodate the Washtowell.