by Bart Belteshassur 100 Replies latest watchtower bible
Terry - I agree that the reference to the 70 years apply to Kings of Babylon in Jeremiah 25, but could you not argue that in Jer 29 it can equally apply to Jerusalem, and same can be said of Leviticus 26, without doubt that is what Daniel states in ch 9. Interestingly that is also implied in Haggai and Zechariah that there is a double meaning in 2 Chrono 36 19-21 which ties in with Daniel , and Lev 26. How would see it in that context?
BB
Following
Terry - I agree that the reference to the 70 years apply to Kings of Babylon in Jeremiah 25, but could you not argue that in Jer 29 it can equally apply to Jerusalem, and same can be said of Leviticus 26, without doubt that is what Daniel states in ch 9. Interestingly that is also implied in Haggai and Zechariah that there is a double meaning in 2 Chrono 36 19-21 which ties in with Daniel , and Lev 26. How would see it in that context?
BB
What we can do with data of any kind is limited to our conversancy with the material and the heuristic we employ to achieve an end result.
That it is incredibly easy to SCREW UP and get a "common sense" result that is WRONG is demonstrated in this old puzzler we all know.
Read it again and use it as an analogy for the 607 debacle with the Watchtower Society.
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Three men go to stay at a motel, and the man at the desk charges them $30.00 for a room. They split the cost ten dollars each. Later the manager tells the desk man that he overcharged the men, that the actual cost should have been $25.00. The manager gives the bellboy $5.00 and tells him to give it to the men.
The bellboy, however, decides to cheat the men and pockets $2.00, giving each of the men only one dollar.
Now each man has paid $9.00 to stay in the room and 3 x $9.00 = $27.00. The bellboy has pocketed $2.00. $27.00 + $2.00 = $29.00 - so where is the missing $1.00?
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Here is the easy method: ASK SIRI
I DID NOTICE THIS however . . .
If you ask Siri, "Was Jerusalem destroyed in 607 BC, the very first reference to pop up is this:
Terry - If the me paid $30 but it should have been $25, if they only got $3 back then they paid $28 and the Bell Boy had $2. I don't get your point, it's just your maths is wrong? Is what your example showing is that if you twist the truth you can make it incomprehensable to those who are not sharp enough to see the stupidity of your methadology?
Haven't checked the rest of posts yet but I will give it further consideration,
BB
Terry - Asking Siri is evidently a waste of time it only knows what it has been told, if I ask the WT instead they would say 607, if I ask AnnOmally she will tell me 586. So is this method of any use ? I now have three different dates. The easy method has got me nowhere. I hope you don't rely on Siri for all your knowledge I don't think it will get you very far. Interest it throughs up Jehovah's Judgement if Siri could read that it would answer 607 and not 587, just goes to prove Siri is a very unreliable source doesn't it.
Do you have a view on my original question regards the 70 year Jerusalem question?
BB
if I ask AnnOmally she will tell me 586.
Actually, I would tell you 587.
AnnO - Sorry, I should have quoted Theile or Mcfall, got my wires crossed somewhere. So I should have done the Jubilee proof to 587 instead, but as I said it is a little more complicated and would be outside of WT doctrine regarding Cyrus. I take on board the point re WT view on Ezra, hard to get around that given that constraint.
BB
AnnOMaly:
As explained above, equating Ahasuerus with Cambyses and Artaxerxes with Bardiya is an outdated view. It mainly comes from older commentaries where they had less archaeological data to go on. There is no indication from history that Cambyses was ever given the name Ahasuerus or that Bardiya was also named Artaxerxes. So 'Ahasuerus' is Xerxes (the Gk. form of the name) and Artaxerxes naturally refers to Artaxerxes I. Ezra talks about the opposition to rebuilding the temple and then digresses to the later opposition, in Xerxes' and Artaxerxes' reigns, concerning the rebuilding of the city walls, before returning to the subject of the temple.
It may seem reasonable to come to the conclusion that it refers to Artaxerxes I, however Ezra 4:23, 24 invalidates that view:
23 Now after the copy of the official document of King Ar·ta·xerx′es had been read before Re′hum and Shim′shai the scribe and their colleagues, they quickly went to Jerusalem to the Jews and used force to stop them. 24 It was then that the work on the house of God, which was in Jerusalem, came to a halt; and it remained at a standstill until the second year of the reign of King Da·ri′us of Persia.
Ezra's reference to 'Artaxerxes' explicitly pre-dates resuming construction of the temple in Darius' second year.
The fact that other sources don't call Cambyses or Bardiya by the 'biblical' names does not conclusively mean that Ezra did not use those names. Josephus incorrectly refers to Artaxerxes I as Xerxes in Antiquities of the Jews Book XI, so it's evident that there may have been some confusion about the sequence of these throne names.
Hi Jeffro. The letter to Artaxerxes involves objections to rebuilding the city:
(Ezra 4:11-16) . . .“To King Ar·ta·xerx′es from your servants, the men of the region Beyond the River: ... They are rebuilding the rebellious and wicked city, and they are finishing the walls and repairing the foundations. Now let it be known to the king that if this city should be rebuilt and its walls finished, they will not give tax, tribute, or toll, and it will result in a loss to the treasuries of the kings. ... We are making known to the king that if this city is rebuilt and its walls are finished, you will have no control of the region Beyond the River.”
(Ezra 4:17-23) . . .Greetings! And now the official document that you sent us has been clearly read before me. ... Now issue an order for these men to stop work, so that the city may not be rebuilt until I issue an order . . . [Cp. Neh. 1:3; 2:3, 5, 17.]
... Now after the copy of the official document of King Ar·ta·xerx′es had been read before Re′hum and Shim′shai the scribe and their colleagues, they quickly went to Jerusalem to the Jews and used force to stop them.
On the other hand, objections and schemes to halt the rebuilding of the temple were occurring between Cyrus' and Darius' reigns:
(Ezra 4:3-5) . . .“You have no share with us in building a house to our God, for we alone will build it to Jehovah the God of Israel, just as King Cyrus the king of Persia has commanded us.” Then the people of the land were continually discouraging the people of Judah and disheartening them from building. They hired advisers against them to frustrate their plans all the days of King Cyrus of Persia until the reign of King Da·ri′us of Persia.
(Ezra 4:24) . . .It was then that the work on the house of God, which was in Jerusalem, came to a halt; and it remained at a standstill until the second year of the reign of King Da·ri′us of Persia.
