l_Q thank you.
VANDERHOVEN7?
Is Armageddon part of the Great Tribulation? what was WT writers word?
by prologos 34 Replies latest jw friends
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Vanderhoven7
LQ - Thanks for the clarification. Now I see the sequential problem if Mathew 24:29-30 is seen as the parousia.
"So, the tribulation does not culminate in Armageddon, according to Jesus. Right AFTER the tribulation, is when signs in heaven will be and when the "second coming" occurs."
Being a partial preterist, I see Armageddon, not the parousia (second advent) being described in verses 29-30; Christ orchestrating the desctruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Similar figurative language is used to describe the destruction of Egypt, Idumea and Babylon in the Old Testament.
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prologos
but since verse 21 (of Math.24) calls the 'great tribulation' the greatest disaster EVER, past and future (including the Mt. Everest-covering, 99.99 % of -ALL- life- destroying- flood),---
how can Armageddon, with it's promised >7 million survivors, and that at least will spare the animal/birds,-- not be included in it?
how, -without Armageddon also incuded,- could it be called "Great--"?
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SAHS
The way I understand the WT’s interpretation is that the “Great Tribulation” is really referring to a complete package of items to occur right after the sufficient fulfillment of the nations ‘crying peace and security,’ beginning with the destruction of Babylon the Great by the seven-headed, ten-horned wild beast and the apparent “celestial phenomenon” to immediately follow (whether symbolic, literal, or both), and ending with the actual Armageddon. According to this, you could think of the “Great Tribulation” as being like a giant .ZIP or .RAR archive file which gets “unpacked” at that point immediately after the “peace and security” proclamation thing when Babylon the Great is about to be turned on, which then presents all the individual items, like the individual, “uncompressed” files which together formed the composite “zipped” archive file.
In other words, the big .ZIP or .RAR self-extracting archive file is just waiting to be double-clicked by Jehovah, unpacking what is referred to by Jesus as being “all these things” when he said at Matthew 24:34: “Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen.” (RNWT)
Jesus said in verse 21, “. . . for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now.” Then in verses 29 and 30, he said, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
Regarding the quote by “leaving_quietly” mentioned above, “So, the tribulation does not culminate in Armageddon, according to Jesus. Right AFTER the tribulation, is when signs in heaven will be and when the "second coming" occurs,” that could not be correct. A correct rendering of that would read: “Right AFTER that specific part of the tribulation, . . .”; i.e., right after that initial phase of the Great Tribulation when Babyon the Great is to be turned on. The Great Tribulation refers to the whole thing – including Armageddon as the very last part of it.
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prologos
SAHS, that what I understood too, expressed better by you, in broad strokes.
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Vanderhoven7
Prologus
Sticking to Matthew's gospel (excluding Revelation for the moment) as I see it...
The "great tribulation" was fulfilled in the first century, culminating with the destruction of Jerusalem.
It's absolutely clear from:
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
(highlighted to show the destruction would be localized and there would be no second fulfillment)
confirmation:
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. (note: This refers back to Matthew 23 prediction of woe and divine vengeance on Christ's own generation)
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.The question is: WHEN WAS THE FOLLOWING TO HAPPEN? (First century or 21 st century)
..........a. "not one of these stones" being left on another?
..........b. running to the hill-country beyond Judea to escape the tribulation of those days? (Where might Christians living in Boston flee to? Should Bostonians be praying that their flight not be in winter and take extra jackets with them when they work on their roofs?)
..........c. "Jews, who aren't slain by the sword being scattered into all nations?Obviously this is first century unrepeatable stuff. Jews are still in all nations today; It's not going to happen again.
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Vanderhoven7
Prologus Re: Armageddon
Picked the following newsy article up a while back.
Not sure who the author is
Armageddon - Past or Future?
"I did not want to foolishly believe something for my generation that was not going to happen. So, I started my private study of the subject. First of all, did the Bible teach that a battle would occur in the valley of Megiddo? I looked through my notes on the subject. The most quoted and famous passage was Revelation 16:14-16. John described it graphically. "They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs and they go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed. Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon."
I discovered in the foot-notes in my Bible the fact that Armageddon should be translated "mount of Megiddo." That would not be a valley as I had been told. I also noticed that the kings of the earth would assemble at Armageddon, the mount. However, they would not fight there. They assembled at (H)armageddon to make war on Jerusalem (16:16), many miles away.
The book of Revelation makes no mention of a war in the valley of Megiddo. In fact, I could never find the words, "Battle of Armageddon" in my Bible. Zechariah 14:2 was another verse that speakers used: "I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it." All of this seemed to have a familiar ring to it. However, none of the verses fit conference speakers' conclusions.
It was later that I read the account of Josephus, the first-century historian who told of "a great day of God Almighty (16:14) in 70 AD, when the Roman forces from all nations assembled at Har-megedon to make war on Jerusalem (16:16).
Neither the Bible nor Josephus described a battle taking place at Har-megedon, the mount, or the valley adjoining it. Both accounts say that the armies assembled there to fight against Jerusalem, many miles away. Josephus was a Jewish General who was defeated in the first battle of the Jewish-Roman war in 67 AD. Because of many good things about Josephus, the Ruler of Rome commissioned him to become a historian for the Roman Empire and to give detailed information on the activities of Titus and his Roman Army as they waged war against the rebellious Jews. This account covered three and one-half years of battle, until Jerusalem was completely destroyed to the ground. Not one stone of the Temple sat upon another stone.
Josephus had recorded how Titus, the Roman General and son of the Emperor, led his troops out of Egypt, north along the shores of the Mediterranean Sea, bypassing the region of Jerusalem, and how he came to the vicinity of Caesarea, bordering Mount Megiddo. Titus and his famous Roman tenth legion waited there for other troops to arrive from beyond the Euphrates River to the northeast and from Rome to the northwest. Once the troops were assembled at Har-megeddon, Titus gave instructions and they marched against the city of Jerusalem. -
leaving_quietly
Regarding the quote by “leaving_quietly” mentioned above, “So, the tribulation does not culminate in Armageddon, according to Jesus. Right AFTER the tribulation, is when signs in heaven will be and when the "second coming" occurs,” that could not be correct. A correct rendering of that would read: “Right AFTER that specific part of the tribulation, . . .”; i.e., right after that initial phase of the Great Tribulation when Babyon the Great is to be turned on. The Great Tribulation refers to the whole thing – including Armageddon as the very last part of it.
Yes, this is what WT teaches.
how can Armageddon, with it's promised >7 million survivors, and that at least will spare the animal/birds,-- not be included in it?
Good question.
This is a difficult subject to truly understand as most of us have a one-sided of what Armageddon is. According to Revelation 16:13-16, Armageddon is a PLACE where the kings of the earth (and presumably their armies) are gathered together for the war against God's armies. There is no mention here of non-military people. Rev 19:19-21 seems to be a description of this same event, where again, it's the kings of the earth, and their armies.
The question is, is Armageddon the event that WT makes it out to be? As I read these verses just now, it seems to me it's the ultimate fulfillment of Daniel 2:44, the part where it says of God's kingdom, "It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms."
Noteworthy is Rev 16:15, an interjection, right before talking about Armageddon: "“Look! I am coming as a thief. Happy is the one who stays awake and keeps his outer garments, so that he may not walk naked and people look upon his shamefulness.”"
This seems to imply that it happens BEFORE Christ's second coming, or perhaps as part of it.So, I don't know myself. I only know what WT teaches. Whether Armageddon is part of the great tribulation or not and whether it involved everyone or not, I simply don't know. Part of me says no. Part of me says yes. It's one of those topics that I'll have to mark: "inconclusive". For now, at least.
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leaving_quietly
Vanderhoven7, are you of the opinion that Matt 24 only has one fulfillment and that has come and gone? Just curious.
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Magnum
JW teaching:
The great tribulation begins when the UN turns on Babylon the Great and ends with Armageddon. So, yes, Armageddon is part of the great tribulation. It is the climax - the conclusion.