by prologos 34 Replies latest jw friends
so do I understand you right? in the first century the natural generation did not pass until ALL these things occurred, it all happened, including the destruction of Jerusalem (the type for Armageddon). and
it would make no difference if the generation spoken about is the wicked people (looking for a sign) or the (not yet) anointed jesus was speaking to?
was not John the supposed bible writer alive 66 years after he heard, but did not take notes at the " end of the world talk" ?
Here is the context of Revelation 16:13-21 NWT:
Events as a result of the pouring out of the sixth bowl:
13 And I saw three unclean inspired expressions [that looked] like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the wild beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and perform signs, and they go forth to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.
15 “Look! I am coming as a thief. Happy is the one that stays awake and keeps his outer garments, that he may not walk naked and people look upon his shamefulness.”
16 And they gathered them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Har–Ma·ged′on.
Events as a result of the pouring out of the seventh bowl:
17 And the seventh one poured out his bowl upon the air. At this a loud voice issued out of the sanctuary from the throne, saying: “It has come to pass!”
18 And lightnings and voices and thunders occurred, and a great earthquake occurred such as had not occurred since men came to be on the earth, so extensive an earthquake, so great.
Events that occur during or as a result of the "great earthquake":
Just going by the immediate context, "Armageddon" is a symbolic place that is arrived at before the "great earthquake" begins. If there is a correspondence with Matthew 24, it would have to be with Matthew 24:15, that is, a situation that is arrived at just before the great earthquake begins. It would appear, based on Revelation 16:16, 17 to be THE event that triggers the pouring out of the seventh bowl, which results in the "great earthquake." See also my post here. You might also note a similarity of the pouring out of the seventh bowl with the blowing of the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15-18.
Extending the point further, this would mean that all of the "great earthquake" takes place at Armageddon, since that is where "the kings of the earth" have been gathered to when the great earthquake breaks out.
Bobcat
I never quite understood how the society interchanges the GT with Armageddon.
LQ
I am a partial preterist. I see two separate sections in Matthew 24 (and parallel passages found in Luke 21 and Mark 13)
Jesus is answering more than one question in this Olivet discourse. As I see it, verses 4 - 35 deal exclusively with Jerusalems distruction and the tribulation that precedes that destruction. He provides the timing to flee Jerusalem (when armies surround) and provides prayer concerns about that flight (not in winter or on a Sabbath day, unburdened by infants, all making escape more difficult) There would be no parousia (personal coming to earth to rescue Israel during the tribulation, so ignore those who say he is present somewhere...for when He does come personally it will be a snare not just on Jerusalem but on the entire earth, from east to west).
Starting from verse 36 Jesus distinguishes His second personal coming to earth (parousia) by introducing this topic with 36 - "But of that day....
36. BUT OF THAT DAY AND HOUR KNOWETH NO MAN,
NO, NOT THE ANGELS OF HEAVEN, BUT MY FATHER
ONLY.
I believe that this verse and "THAT DAY" signal a change in topic
to the second coming (parousia) of Christ. Mt.7: 20-22
Mt.11:22 Jn.5:25,29
Jesus has already explained what would happen to His own
generation. Now He contrasts that which would relate to His
second coming (parousia) or presence on earth.
Notice the contrasts:
Matt 24:1-35 ..................................................................Matt 24: 36 - end
__________ ...................................................................__________________
Local, Jerusalem,Judea,Temple ............................................Worldwide: Lu.21:35
Abnormal Times: calamities.................................................. Normal Times: Marrying, working in fields etc.
Specific signs precede......................................................... No Signs Given
Timing Anticipated Lu.24:33 ...............................................Anticipation Impossible 24:44
These Days Mt.24:22 .........................................................That Day Mt.24:36
Saints to flee.................................................................. ....No Running; Saints taken
- - -
MATTHEW 24 Re: OLIVET DISCOURSE; Parallels: Luke 21, Mark 13
CENTRAL QUESTION:
Which "generation" was Christ referring to in Matthew 24:34? (the time text)
- To which generation was Christ referring in Matthew 23:36?
- If the judicial sentence & prophetic woe of Mat.23:36
applies to Christ's generation, would not the exact same
terminology in Mat.24:34 have the same application?
LET'S CONSIDER ALL POSSIBLE GENERATIONAL APPLICATIONS.
CHRIST COULD HAVE INTENDED BY VERSE 34 THAT:
a. "all these things" were to happen to the 20th century generation exclusively.
- Impossible: conversation centers on "these stones" which were knocked down in 70 AD.
- Impossible Lu.21:23-24 states that subsequent to great distress, Jews were to be led captive to all nations
which occurred immediately after the 70 AD destruction.
b. "all these things" were to happen to both Christ's generation and our generation. (dual fulfillment theory)
- Impossible: -these buildings and are already destroyed.
- Impossible -Jews are not to be led captive into all nations again at Christ's second coming.
- Impossible -Matt.24:21 precludes dual fulfillment.
c. "all these things" were to happen to Christ's generation exclusively.
- possible, but only if it can be shown that "all these things" declared before verse 35 actually
did happen to the generation Jesus addressed ?
Was Matthew 24: 1 - 35 entirely fulfilled in the first century?
The following is an excerpt from The Watchtower of May 1, 1999 (p. 11,12)which contains some elements of sound interpretation.
In the years leading up to 66 C.E., Christians would have seen many of the preliminary elements of the composite sign being fulfilled-wars, famines, even an extensive preaching of the good news of the Kingdom. (Acts 11:28; Colossians 1:23) When, though, would the end come? What did Jesus mean when he said: 'This generation [Greek, ge.ne.a'] will not pass away'? Jesus had often called the contemporaneous mass of opposing Jews, including religious leaders, 'a wicked, adulterous generation.' (Matthew 11:16; 12:39, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36) So when, on the Mount of Olives, he again spoke of "this generation," he evidently did not mean the entire race of Jews throughout history; nor did he mean his followers, even though they were "a chosen race." (1 Peter 2:9) Neither was Jesus saying that "this generation" is a period of time. Rather, Jesus had in mind the opposing Jews back then who would experience the fulfillment of the sign he gave. Regarding the reference to "this generation" at Luke 21:32, Professor Joel B. Green notes: "In the Third Gospel, 'this generation' (and related phrases) has regularly signified a category of people who are resistant to the purpose of God. . . . [It refers] to people who stubbornly turn their backs on the divine purpose." *
and then they blow it by asserting that the generation is the Christians, anointed, then and now. because
If Armageddon as defined by wt is part of the great tribulation, (all these things), then the new lite teaching of the FADS, rapture BEFORE Armageddon is wrong.
their illustration, charts, graphs are wrong.
In the first century, some of the generation, whoever, survived the carnage at Jerusalem.
In the second fulfillment as envisioned by wt writers, the generation of anointed will NOT SURVIVE all these things. and that nu-lite contradicts what Jesus is supposed to have said. right? so:
Prediction!, to fix that, wt writers will have to back-track and declare
the generation in overlapping mode to be the Other Sheep for
they have been promised to survive Armageddon (which the anointed do not) and
survive "all these things" into the promised panda petting paradise.
JW follows pre-tribulation eschatology, but bit twisted view as was formulated by various religious crazies in Northern America during the Second Great Awakening. Armageddon is the final part of the Great Tribulation as was formulated at years I was in the cult. The best topics on it I remember was from study of the book of Revelation.
The secret is the distinction between "tribulation of those days" and the "great tribulation". Had there been no difference then Jesus would not have used such different wording. The "gathering" process meaning of the "Armageddon" meaning, is active now with globalization as its obvious world networking main force. So that conglomeration and the "war of the great day of God the Almighty" are actually also distinct different meanings. Armageddon is a process active even now with global sovereign implications. (Rev16:12-16; Rev17:11-18);
One clue is the "tribulation of those days" resolves as shown at Matthew 24:29, not into the end, but into world seen final milestones first. (Matt24:30-31) And those are quite the milestones not even the "end" yet. Bethel just glosses over all this detail as they also attempt to filter out the "evil slave" warning to keep their own status well sanitized. Thus the "tribulation of those days" is not ending in "the end", but in a global milestone: world government, the "Armageddon" ultimate globalized "product".
So in my opinion "Armageddon" is an ongoing global process that culminates under world government (also a process aided by supranational globalization administrations and super-corporations global in authority), the obvious culmination of globalization. It is a global situation of sovereign conglomeration (in every form formerly governed by individual nations as best they could), it in itself is a seemingly innocuous globalizing process, and the process consolidates world resources for a great recovery potential at the end of the cycle, it is what the conglomeration means in a sovereign sense that is ominous, it is an apex consolidation.
In any event it will takes some final years to wind down the globalization process, it is not the Bethel "slam dunk".
Bethel's premature end delusion is the one at 2Thessalonians 2:1-2 as a signal warning Paul gave to ID the last point of what is now the classic terminal apostasy: right at Bethel, right in the corrupted well veneered leadership. Paul gave these warnings because expert apostates, like Bethel, are very hard to detect for those misled by them, it is a gradual process (Dan8:12, 2Cor11:13-15) but effective by the time it is completing. (2Thess2:1-4; Dan8:23a)
The use of the premature "end" delusion, "to the effect the day of Jehovah is here", what Bethel is doing right now, aids Bethel's concealment with a mental smokescreen, false anticipation and eventual total hoax potential. That is what Bethel is actually creating and thus blatantly "exciting" Jehovah's witnesses, and others, "to the effect" the end is nearer than it actually is. It is the earmark main delusion of the modern apostasy.
Of course the worst "apostates" are not the poor stumbled guys out on the street and in the pews (where Bethel directs focus away from themselves), it is in the central ministerial authority, the same place the big Bible "apostasies" ALWAYS manifested historically. Bethel is no different, connecting them to prophecy is actually logical, but due to its ominous implications it is avoided by JWs and non-JWs alike in general, the cognitive dissonance thing. Yet that is what we are dealing with, and this is how Bethel, though fulfilling all the signals, is so well hidden in comprehensive false perceptions, they subvert both JWs and non-JWs with the "first reaction" assessment no matter how they deploy the illusions.
Bethel will go down long before the overall world system (Dan8:13; 1Pet4:17), instead the world system fully globalizes into world government, and a period of world "peace and security" (invert Matt24:6) and world recovery (Isa41:1) at the end of this drawn out cycle, still yet to start, not end yet. (Dan11:42-45).
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What ends the overall "great" "tribulation", still many years from now, is God's "repay tribulation to those who cause tribulation" at 2Thessalonians 1:6-10, yet another "tribulation" meaning in the Bible, but the final one. Bethel is just a global waffling act trying to bypass the most significant period and cycle of all human history with their main delusion it will "end any day now". Bethel is what will "end any day now".
if, as MAGNUM wrote, Armageddon is the CLIMAX of the Great Tribulation,
do not count on the Governing Body, FaDS to be around, they will have withdrawn before the climax is reached.
They propose that it will at a higher level for them, though.
The overlapping generation will be the missing generation at the end.
