He already has his mind made up and then pretends he wants to have a discussion.
Well, since you've already made your mind up, then surely nothing I could say would matter.
Have you ever read the review of Steven Hassan's books on Cult news.com?
by Enzo 144 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Paralipomenon
I looked up Mann before and the only court case I could find where they were used as an expert Witness was ruled in favor of the Watchtower. In research it is very difficult to find any opinion or articles from Mann other than they hate Hassan.
Many here have used the BITE method to help free loved ones from cults so if you are going to make a case against Hassan, unfortunately it will be contrary to the personal life experience of many individuals here.
I would be interested in hearing more about what Dr. Mann says about the Watchtower and how to reach those trapped within. Just stating that someone is court recognized but has no suggestions for how to help others is, well, useless.
Personally Combatting Cult Mind Control did little for me as I felt it was targeted towards freeing recent converts to a cult and dwelt little on how to assist multigenerational members like my family. My wife found it helpful for her in her exit though but she wouldn't have considered to read it while she was still an active JW.
JWN is likely a more sceptical and rational website than most. Many of the members here have been freed from the Watchtower and developed critical thinking skills to evaluate hype and propoganda (some just found a different cause to follow, though... )
If you come here with a rational arguement with references, sources and links to your sources, you will likely find an open and spirited discussion and debate. Otherwise hype and accusations will be met with skepticism and quite likely riddicule.
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Paralipomenon
Here is a bit more about Mann. She subscribes to Lifton's Theory of Thought Reform which is presented below:
1. Milieu control: control of communication within the environment resulting in a significant degree of isolation from surrounding society. Nonmembers to a group or relationship are labeled as ignorant, misled, or harmful.
2. Mystical manipulation: The claim of absolute (or divine) authority that allows the leader to reinterpret events as she or he wishes, or make prophecies, predictions, or pronouncements at will, all for the purpose of controlling others.
3. Demand for purity: The world is viewed in black and white, and adherents/clients are constantly exhorted to strive for the leader’s definition of perfection. The leader creates a narrow world of guilt and shame for client/adherents/followers.
4. The cult of confession: Serious (and not so serious) infractions, as defined by the leader, are to be confessed and behavior is to be monitored at all times. The cult of confession makes it virtually impossible to attain the reasonable balance between worth and humility.
5. The sacred science: The teachings of the leader are considered the ultimate truth, beyond all questioning or disputing. The leader of the group is considered above all questioning or criticism. Any personal, private quests for knowledge are suppressed.
6. Loaded language: The leader and the clients/adherents/followers develop a jargon unique into itself, often non-understandable to outsiders. This jargon consists of numerous words and phrases which the members understand, but which really act to dull one’s ability to engage in critical thinking.
7. Doctrine over person: The personal experiences of the clients/adherents/followers are subordinated to the “truth” held by the leader. The teachings of the leader are always more important than any individual. Past events are retrospectively altered, wholly rewritten, or ignored to make them consistent with the current “truth” held by the leader.
8. Dispensing of existence: The leader has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. Usually held non-literally, this means that those outside the group or relationship are unspiritual, worldly, unconscious, lost, dying, stupid, unreachable, or whatever. Current clients/adherent/followers are always conscious that, if they stray too far from the leader’s truth, that they will also lose their right to existence.
Here is an exchange between Lifton and Hassan. He does not seem to share Mann's rabid hate.
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Twitch
Good link, Para
Lifton's definitions were proverbial nails in the coffin for any residual doubts about the org. Mainly because they weren't specifically aimed at the jw world and thus didn't have a bias or motive yet completely encompass the microcosm that it is.
I've never read Hassan's books though I hear they're good ;)
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Witness My Fury
BITE was a lot easier to remember than Liftons list LOL....
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Enzo
hello, to all of you,
I have been busy, and I have a lot of work to do.. This is the reason why I diidn't have been logged in here:
TJ curioso:thank you for your affords, and your references: But I can't read portugues. But I think it could be very interesting to read, and analyse.
parapalpemon: I am not making a case against Hassan, I have expressed my scepticism about his BITE model, but you are free to accept it and to use it.
About Dr Manner: Do you have a reference where he is saying that Jehovah Witnesses Are a destructive Cult? I am curious to read it.
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Enzo
Bruja del sol: I am also embarrased by your behaviour: the Dutch behaviour.. strange types..LOL
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Enzo
I will repeat for those who did not read my preview posts, or are in a defence modus : I hace expressed my concerns and expressed my scepticism about the BITE model from Hassan. But did doesn't mean that you can use it. You all can have your opinion about it. But hear the opinions, and experiences from others is always good. but I am not totally convinced that the Books of Hassan has helped everybody here on this forum: the question remains: Is the BITE model really effective For everybody? Even Hassan admits about his interventions, that they are not working for everybody...and so it can be said about other cult experts who are working with ex-members of destructive Cults. Sure it could be a guideline, but not a guarantee. That's the reason why a lot of models presented by cult experts, are still under question by the psychiatric community, and not always accepted by the European Union by example, or in Court cases When dealing with Religious movements, or Religious Cults, despite all the claims presented by ex- cult members here, on JW survey, and other forums. On internet we can challenge another, debate, and expressing our opinions, but at the end what really matters is that what governments defines as a good Cult, or a destructive cult. And the reality is that the JW's are recognised as a Religious movement, and not as a destructive cult in a lot of Nations. And I don't think that a BITE model will really change this.
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TJ Curioso
Enzo read the Hassan's book "Releasing the Bonds" were are the JW mention, including exemples of therapy that he make with some of them. See the pages: 19-21, 205-210 and 307-308. They are mention in other pages of the book.
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TJ Curioso
Enzo answear me please:
For You what caracteristics define a destructive cult or one that use "undue influence"?