Enzo, if a JW accept a blood transfusion what happens? What are the actions that the religion take in that case?
Have you ever read the review of Steven Hassan's books on Cult news.com?
by Enzo 144 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Londo111
I'll touch on a few points...
* isolation, deprivation
JWs are isolated, even though geographically the majority do not live on the Bethel compounds. It is ingrained only to make friends with other JWs, not to get close to “worldly people”. Children are not supposed to part in extracurricular activities or sports. Adults are not supposed to spend time with coworkers after work. JWs have to take their leave when holiday activities come up. Besides, there is not allot of free time from non-cult activities and that isolates a person from the outside world.
Since all one’s support network, friends and family, end up being JWs, isolation is used as a tool to keep people in line. A person may be marked, thus excluded from social activities. Or they may be disfellowshipped, in which case such ones are isolated by total shunning.
Enzo, have you ever been that excluded? Have you gone three days without talking with anyone? I have. I know the isolation that the Watchtower brings upon people. Many of us here can testify to this.
Unlike the popular sterotype, most cults members live in their own houses and have normal jobs, only a minority live in compounds. For JWs, that minority are called Bethelites. Bethelites are even more isolated, living on the Bethel compound, where they are worked hard and have to obey a very arbitrary and extensive list of rules. It is a grueling regimen.
* hours of indoctrination
Wow, where do I begin with this? JWs used to meet three times a week, now it is only twice. Even so, they attend 4 hours of meetings a week. And then, they have to spend time “preparing” for the meetings, and “studying” other JW publications. There are also long, monotonous assemblies that they must attend. Perhaps you should sit through a weekend at one of these assemblies and see what you think.
*economical damage
Because “higher education” is frowned upon, this can have a long-term impact. What is encouraged is for JWs to “pioneer”, making a fulltime career of recruitment. To make room for this, the admonition is to take part time work, cut back on one’s standard of living, downsize one’s house. Before 1975, many sold their homes, businesses, and so forth, to pioneer. The Watchtower gave tacit approval of such a course. Some put off medical and dental procedures because they were encouraged to think that the end was coming in 1975. There is much economical impact to the JW community. Not everyone “sold their home” to serve the Watchtower, but thousands have.
JWs are indoctrinated in an extreme way…it is a low and slow process that never ends, and it is almost impossible to break because of its subtle nature. If you’ve ever seen a JW’s aposta-alarm go off, you would see how indoctrinated they are.
More have died in the JWs than Jim Jones, the Solar Temple, Waco, and combined and many times over. This makes the Watchtower the most dangerous cult of all, a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
And, Enzo, the blood policy is not being enforced? I’m sorry, but you are very misinformed. It is hard to say if the Watchtower will want to make a public spectacle of King, or what his status is as a JW, whether inactive, or where his records are, and so forth. All this has an impact how such situations are handled. There are many nominal JWs, like Serina Williams, who do things most JWs would get in trouble for.
From page 111 of the Shepard The Flock book (the secret elder’s handbook), it says:
If someone willingly takes blood, perhaps because of being under extreme pressure, the committee should obtain the facts and determine the individual’s attitude. If he is repentant the committee would provide spiritual assistance in the spirit of Galatians 6: 1 and Jude 22, 23. Since he is spiritually weak, he would not qualify for special privileges for a period of time, and it may be necessary to remove certain basic privileges. Depending on the circumstances, the committee may also need to arrange for an announcement to the congregation: "'The elders have handled a matter having to do with [name of person]. You will be glad to know that spiritual shepherds are endeavoring to render assistance." On the other hand, if the elders on the committee determine that he is unrepentant, they should announce his disassociation.
The Watchtower has made it so a person is not disfellowshipped by taking blood, rather, they are said to have disassociated themselves. The result is the same: shunning. It is a beancounting maneuver. They told Bulguria they don’t disfellowship a person for taking blood. That is technically true, but by taking blood, a person is expelled nonetheless. They just call it something else.
And beyond the threat of shunning, because of Information Control, threat of Armageddon and other fears and guilts that are laid on thick, the Watchtower can still influence their members to not take blood. I’m sure one day the Watchtower will lift its blood ban, however, it won’t change the fact that thousands already have died because of this.
While other groups practice ‘excommunication’, this is not often practiced, even if on the books, and it is simply a membership change. In these groups, excommunication does not result in institutional shunning, and the excommunicating those who do not shun the expelled. Excommunication and shunning are the hallmarks of a destructive cult.
Everything above is not my opinion, but facts, which you could verify if you wanted to. I am curious why you are so invested in the thought that the Watchtower is not a dangerous cult, but a benign group. After what thousands on this forum have experienced, do you really think we can be swayed on this matter? Sometimes I am not sure what you are doing here, whether you are an indoctrinated JW apologist, or whether you are a troll and just yanking our chain. If you have an honest motive for being here, I really encourage you to educate yourself more about the Watchtower and the harm it has brought on people.
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GrreatTeacher
Great summary, Londo. Rather than being so overt, the sneaky nature of some of these things makes the WT all the more dangerous.
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Paralipomenon
@Enzo: Oh sorry, I thought you were sincere. I didn't realize you were just a Watchtower apologist. Didn't mean to feed the troll.
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Enzo
Parapilpopemon: claims must be have strong evidences, and no I am not a JW apologist, or a droll, I am only a person who is not so easy influenced by others, and I have the idea, that if someone is rejecting your theories: you can't respect these persons.you call them trolls, JW apologist.... The main issue remains: did the BITE model really helped you? Your behaviour contradicts what you are preaching. when you got a court victory with all these theories, and claims, then I will read it.. But until then these are only claims, theories, models that are changing in every new book release, it's not difficult to understand that these theories remains still under discussion.. (london:111) and not acceped by everyone.
London111: Thank you for your opinions, but I like to join to conclusions of experts, proffesionals, and in particular of the psychiatric community.
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TJ Curioso
Enzo I have some books (as I mention) about sects. Do You know the book Cults - Faith, healing, and Coercion by Marc Galanter?
He's Professor of Psychiatry at the New York University School of Medicine. In his book the JW are mention!!! (see here http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cults-Healing-Coercion-Marc-Galanter/dp/0195123700/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1411037400&sr=8-1&keywords=Cults+-+faith)
Do You know the Book Take Back Your Life by Janja Lalich and Madeleine Tobias? In his book the JW are mention!!! (see here http://www.amazon.co.uk/Take-Back-Your-Life-Relationships/dp/0972002154/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1411037552&sr=8-1&keywords=Take+back+Your+life)
This two books are only a example how professionals from mental health see the JW religion and the impact that has in is members (in the context of cults and destrutive sects).
I think You need to search a little more about this before come here to tell things that don't match with reality. And worse, coming from a professional of mental health is more serious because You have a duty to your clients and not to a religion.
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Enzo
tjcurioso: What happens in a lot of families where there are tensions? very often they don't speak years with each other.. or till they dies. And good family relations are broken.. Very sad, with my work I often deal with such situations.... why is this conduct accept, and why is nobody ring on the alarm bell? i know a lot of JW's who have contact with expelled family despite the policy they have to follow.. And of course others who are following strictly the rules...but I think you are making an overstatement....we are approximately 4 miljard people on earth, if 4 miljoen people don't want teoretically speak with you, There are other 3 miljard people where you can have a good time...thus why making such a great problem about an expellement procedure, if families in different countrys, are practising the same method against homosexualss, lesbians? Without being religious...They are leterally send way from home, and not accepted anymore by the family... and i can't read a lot of protest against this? or didn't I miss something?
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bohm
Why this assumption Enzo has studied psychology at a university? Wouldn't someone who had studied for several years at a university in Europe be able to write english at high-school level? Wouldn't someone with a university level education normally show a reading comprehension in english greater than a 14 year old and be able to read a simple question and type a response to that question? Would a mental health professional respond by non-sequiturs and by insisting those who disagree were under some mysterious effect caused by them breaking with a religion?
One thing is writing english at the same level a drunk moron might piss Shakespeare from memory in the snow, God knows my English is bad too and this might be compatible with a university education in some areas in Europe, however Enzo should be able to read English, think of a response to what was actually asked which is better than what the drunk moron might come up with, type it into google translate and get a response to what was actually asked in English.
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bohm
Enzo, the mental health professional with a university level education:
... i know a lot of JW's who have contact with expelled family despite the policy they have to follow.. And of course others who are following strictly the rules...but I think you are making an overstatement....we are approximately 4 miljard people on earth, if 4 miljoen people don't want teoretically speak with you, There are other 3 miljard people where you can have a good time...
Translated:
With my training as a mental health professional and deep understanding of the human psyche I don't see any reason why being rejected by ones loved ones should be a problem because there are other people on earth who might not theoretically reject the person. In other words, my university-level training in human emotions tell me people do not (or should not?) think there is a difference between loved ones and total strangers.
Also, unlike most 8 year olds, I have no flippin' clue how many people are on the planet. Furthermore:
4 billions - 4 millions = 3 billions.
Enzo: Pray tell me what fine university of higher learning gave you your diploma? Your spelling of million make me think it might be somewhere in scandinavia
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TJ Curioso
tjcurioso: What happens in a lot of families where there are tensions? very often they don't speak years with each other.. or till they dies. And good family relations are broken.. Very sad, with my work I often deal with such situations.... why is this conduct accept, and why is nobody ring on the alarm bell? i know a lot of JW's who have contact with expelled family despite the policy they have to follow.. And of course others who are following strictly the rules...
Enzo, I don't understand Your comparison. We are not talking about familie and all the problems existing in the midle. We are discussing the evidence that points to a certain group as a cult and what determines that group as a cult.
The shunning is ALWAYS a clue that certain group can be or certainly is "destructive cult" or use great control over the members, creating a mentality of us vs. them. The religion of the Witnesses don't have this clue alone (shunning), and if You read all the books that exist about cults and articles about that and compare to the JW, You can see that many of the characteristics attributed to cults fit perfectly in the JW religion. Don't all of them, but many do.
London111 only mention some aspects but there are many more.
See the book Take Back Your Life by Janja Lalich and Madeleine Tobias in page 327-328 were are mention characteristics associated with Cultic Groups and compare with the JW.
There are 15 characteristics mention there and in the JW religion at least 12 fit.