Be Honest About This Doctrinal Matter (page 2)

Apognophos

Yes, things do not look good for anyone who doesn't receive a witness before the end comes. As blondie's quotes illustrate, if a person does not hear the word then they are not going to have a chance to survive Armageddon. I think the reason why it is not considered a requirement for all to hear the word is the concept of "community responsibility", where a group that has shown a general ungodly attitude is judged as a group. This is the same rationale that made it okay for children to be killed along with their wicked parents during the Flood.

This is written from the WT perspective, of course you understand, not my personal beliefs.

DATA-DOG

Well, if Jeehoober can read hearts then why the hell should I be "overly concerned" about getting up a Saturday mornings??

DD

blondie

*** w10 9/15 p. 10 par. 12 Earnestly Seek Jehovah’s Blessing ***

We recognize that the end could come at any time; Jehovah’s timing is not contingent on our giving a personal witness to every individual on the planet. (Matt. 10:23)

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I've been around the WTS for a long time and some hopeful jws who are conflicted about some people not getting a face to face witness, say this, even elders. But I have never seen it in print, as the above shows.

There is a term called "community responsibility" that you might want to research in WT publications which says if you are in a community that rejects God (Jehovah), you are held responsibility for the community's decision.

*** w65 9/15 pp. 575-576 Questions From Readers ***

Since millions of persons in China and other places have never heard the Kingdom message, will these people be preserved through the destruction of Babylon the Great and the war of Armageddon, or perhaps be resurrected later?—H.S., U.S.A.

It is important to understand what the Bible says about the destruction to come at the end of this system of things. In his illustration of the sheep and the goats Jesus indicated that a separating work would be done “when the Son of man arrives in his glory,” and that persons would be classed as either “sheep” or “goats.” (Matt. 25:31-46) In part, the basis for the separation would be the reaction of people to the preaching of the good news of the established kingdom. That preaching work is now being done by Jehovah’s witnesses. Jesus explained that those on earth who favorably responded to that message and treated kindly its bearers would be classed as “sheep” and would enter into “everlasting life.” The rest of mankind who did not respond favorably to the preaching work and offered no aid to those who carried the Kingdom message would be classed as “goats” and would go, not into a temporary death, but into “everlasting cutting-off” at the time when judgment is executed.

But some persons, appreciating that millions of people are to be resurrected and given an opportunity to serve God, wonder if the millions of individuals living today who apparently have never heard the Kingdom message preached will be everlastingly destroyed without ever having had a witness about God’s purposes. It is true that at present it appears that there are vast numbers of mankind who have not heard the Kingdom preaching. Also, from what the Bible says and from conditions in the world, we know that we are in the “last days.” But we do not know just how much more will be accomplished in preaching the Kingdom message before the end comes. (2 Tim. 3:1-5; Matt. 24:3-13) If at the end of the second world war someone had said that the Kingdom preaching would be carried out, by more than a million publishers, in over 190 lands, including communistic countries, many might have found that hard to believe. Yet, Jehovah has blessed his people, and that is exactly what is being accomplished. So, if it is Jehovah’s will to have this message personally carried to the millions on earth who seemingly have not yet heard it, that will be accomplished. If he chooses, he could see to it that this message is spread in ways that we cannot yet imagine. Jesus did foretell that “this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” (Matt. 24:14) We can rest assured that God will see that the preaching work is done to his satisfaction. After that “the end” comes.

Then those who correspond with “goats,” whether in China or elsewhere, will be pronounced “cursed” and will not be permitted to survive that “end” into God’s new order of things. Since these go into symbolic “fire” (like the Devil and his angels), their punishment will be everlasting. They will never be resurrected.—Matt. 25:41-46.

Apognophos

Unless she saw my post before she posted, it looks like blondie and I are thinking along the same lines!

OrphanCrow

The point is moot.

And yes, probably mute too.

Wasanelder Once

The GB has often pointed out how the actions of a few can cause a witness to many ie: the Children in india in the 90's who refused to sing the national anthem resulting in an article in the national newspaper about JW's. This seemed good enough for them that the "Kingdom was being preached to the inhabited earth." This event fulfilled the prophecy for the billions in Inda, well done kids!

*** w88 2/1 p. 20 par. 18 Will You Be a Witness for the True God? ***
The same newspaper also observed: “These children refused to sing the National Anthem because Jehovah’s Witnesses consider themselves to be Christians and devoted entirely to the Kingdom of God. . . . They therefore do not participate in any of the political activity of the State.” Also, The Telegraph of Calcutta reported: “The schoolchildren’s action has also brought into the limelight . . . Jehovah’s Witnesses, which had remained largely obscure in our country till recently.” Yes, ‘this good news of the kingdom will be preached for a witness to all the nations’ before the end comes.

Nevermind that the literacy rate in India was barely 38% at the time. Morons.

westiebilly11

interesting....because the message people get at armageddon is more likely to be 100% accurate rather than the muddled blend of old/new light being preached now...

Crazyguy

Yes that is correct they believe that gods so loving he would not kill anyone that has not heard the message, so Jw's are not doing anyone any favors are they..

objectivetruth

I created this response for a "friend" a while back, perhaps it can be of help to you.

The Most Current Watchtower focusing on Two Main topics of the value of the Ransom, Salvation, and the Resurrection. is the July 15,2013 Watchtower, It was this very Watchtower that made me open my eyes and understand what I was supporting and preaching to people. http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20130715/jesus-prophecy-last-days/ http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20130715/jesus-parable-wheat-and-weeds/ Articles Examined. This is a Summary of a Summary to make things as easy for you as possible.. For further clarification please see the Bullitized points below every relevant verse, Below. IF I have misunderstood, misquoted anything, please let me know. If the Current July 15 2013 Watchtower is not sufficient, I have pasted relevant past articles below it, to demonstrate the Organizations Teaching.

Sheep & Goats -

Who is a Goat? - The ones considered goats, are individuals that Reject the Kingdom Message.

When Will they be Judged? - Up until the Great Tribulation Goats have an opportunity to "Accept the Kingdom Message" and become Jehovah's Witnessed. When the Great Tribulation arrives it will be too late.

What happens to a Goat? - He is Annihilated with no Hope of Resurrection.

Conclusion - Any Human alive on earth that has Rejected the Kingdom Message, when the Great Tribulation arrives, will be Annihilated.

Wheat & Weeds -

Who is considered to be Wheat? All "Imitation Jehovah's Witnesses" as well as any Individual of Christendom during the period of harvest 1914 Onward.

When will they be Judged? As they are collected and bound into bundles they are Judged. They will be collected until Armageddon

What happens to an individual that is considered to be "Wheat"? They are tossed into the Fiery Furnace, which is claimed to be Gehenna.

Conclusion - If you are not a Faithful Jehovah's Witness from 1914 Onward and if you are in Christendom you are Annihilated.

Article - “Tell Us, When Will These Things Be?” Paragraph 10 - "Previously, we thought that the judging of people as sheep or goats would take place during the entire period of the last days from 1914 onward. We concluded that those who rejected the Kingdom message and who died before the start of the great tribulation would die as goats—without the hope of a resurrection."

The timing of the Judging of the Sheep & Goats, has been adjusted, from 1914 onward to a later to be specified time period.
The ones considered goats, are individuals that Reject the Kingdom Message.
The Goats after death have no hope of Resurrection.
Since they have no hope of Resurrection, they are sent to Gehenna / Lake of Fire (The only place in the Bible where someone has no hope of Resurrection)

Paragraph 13 - "Jesus will judge people of all nations as sheep or goats when he comes during the great tribulation. Then, at Armageddon, the climax of the great tribulation, the goatlike ones will be ‘cut off’ forever. "

The timing of Judgement of the Sheep and the Goats takes place during the Great Tribulation. - It is Again emphasized that the Goats will be Cut Off Forever - Lake of Fire.

Article - “Look! I Am With You All the Days” Paragraph 2 - "Jesus would gather out of mankind the entire wheat class—an ointed Christians who will rule with him in his Kingdom. The sowing began at Pentecost 33 C.E. The gathering will be complete when the anointed who are alive at the end of this system of things receive their final sealing and then are taken to heaven... The parable describes a time of sowing, growth, and harvesting.

The sowing of Fine Seed began at Pentecost 33 C.E.
The Gathering will be complete once the Anointed are sealed, and taken to heaven.
There are three Phases - Sowing,Growth,Harvesting.

Paragraph 3 - "At the dawn of the second century C.E., “the weeds appeared” when imitation Christians became visible in the world field. (Matt. 13:26) By the fourth century, weedlike Christians had greatly outnumbered anointed Christians. Recall that in the parable, the slaves asked their master for permission to uproot the weeds.

Weeds began to appear in the 2 Century.
From the 4th Century onward Weeds have outnumbered Anointed Christians.

Paragraph 4 - "However, some decades before the start of the harvest season, the wheat class became discernible. How did that come about?"

Some decades before the start of the Harvest Season Wheat became discernible.

Paragraph 6 - "During the decades leading up to 1914, C. T. Russell and his close associates did a work like that of John the Baptizer. That vital work involved restoring Bible truths. The Bible Students taught the true meaning of Christ’s ransom sacrifice, exposed the hellfire lie, and proclaimed the coming end of the Gentile Times. Still, there were numerous religious groups who claimed to be Christ’s followers. So a crucial question needed to be answered: Who among those groups were the wheat? To settle that question, Jesus began to inspect the spiritual temple in 1914. That inspection and cleansing work involved a period of time—from 1914 to the early part of 1919."

The work that C.T. Russell and the Bible Students did was similar to what John the Baptist did.
restoring Bible truths. The Bible Students taught the true meaning of Christ’s ransom sacrifice... (This is an interesting Statement, when you know the Meaning of Christ's Ransom Sacrifice, that C.T. Russell taught.) If C.T. Russell taught that Jesus Died for all man, and we now teach that Jesus Died for some, is this the same Meaning being Taught?
The three Bible Truths of Importance here are - The Lie of Hell Fire, The True Meaning of Christ's Ransom Sacrifice, Gentile Times close had drawn near.

Please see this Article.. http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2006881 - Here the Watchtower compares Teaching a Different Good News to the Teaching of Trinity and the Removal of God's name in the Bible. Without spending time on it too much, would you agree that the Watchtower puts a great deal of Importance on The True Meaning of Christ's Ransom Sacrifice.

There were Multiple Groups of Individual Christian Groups at this time.
In order to Choose the Wheat Class, Jesus inspected each group from 1914 to the early part of 1919.
The Inspection also included a Cleansing Work.

Paragraph 7 - A small group of zealous Bible Students who for well over 30 years had given their strength and fortunes to pursue a vigorous preaching campaign. *What a joy it must have been for Jesus and the angels to find that those relatively few but sturdy wheat stalks had not been choked by Satan’s weeds! Still, there arose a need to “cleanse the sons of Levi,” the anointed ones. (Mal. 3:2, 3; 1 Pet. 4:17) Why so?

Jesus found the Group then known as the International Bible Students
They had been Vigorously preaching since 1880
These Brothers & Sisters are compared to the Sons of Levi.
There was a need to Cleanse these anointed ones.

Paragraph 8 - after Brother Russell’s death in October 1916, opposition arose from inside the organization. Four of the seven directors of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society rebelled against the decision to have Brother Rutherford take the lead. They tried to cause division among the brothers, but in August 1917, they left Bethel—a cleansing indeed! Also, some Bible Students gave in to the fear of man. Still, as a whole they willingly responded to Jesus’ cleansing work and made the needed changes. Hence, Jesus judged them to be true Christian wheat, but he rejected all imitation Christians, including all of those found within the churches of Christendom.

Four of the Seven members of the directors of the Watchtower rebelled against the Decision to have Brother Rutherford take the lead.

It is of note, that these 7 Men made up the Faithful & Discreet Slave / Governing Body at that time. See this quote "The Watchtower of November 1, 1944, said: “Reasonably, those who were entrusted with the publication of the revealed Bible truths were looked to as the Lord’s chosen governing body to guide all those who desired to worship God in spirit and in truth and to serve him unitedly in spreading these revealed truths to other hungering and thirsting ones.” - w90 3/15 pp. 16-17 par. 8
These 4 Men from the Governing Body left Bethel in August 1917 - So this decision was brought about by Jesus, through his Cleansing Work.
Some other Bible Students gave into the Fear of Man (It does not Expand on this)
All of the Needed changes were made, to be considered approved by Jesus, and True Christian Wheat.
All Christians whom were not a part of the IBS were "rejected" by Jesus (One Report states this "Christians were 34.5 percent of world population in 1900" "There were 1.65 Billion humans on earth in 1900 - This would calculate to approx 550 Million Christians that were Rejected by Jesus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population_estimates / http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0010.html )
The 4 of the 7 Governing Body Members whom were Cleansed out of the congregation are considered Weeds.

Paragraph 9 - "The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things,” said Jesus. (Matt. 13:39) That harvest season began in 1914. We will consider five developments that Jesus foretold for that time"

The Harvest Began in 1914
There will be 5 Developments.

Paragraph 10 - "First, collecting the weeds. Jesus says: “In the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles.” After 1914, the angels began to “collect” weed like Christians by separating them from the anointed “sons of the kingdom.”—Matt. 13:30, 38, 41.

During the Harvest (Beginning in 1914) - Jesus tells the Reapers to "Bind the Weeds into Bundles"
After 1914 the Angels began this work of "Separating" the Wheat from the Weeds.
The weeds are Separated from the Sons of the Kingdom.

Paragraph 12 - " Second, gathering the wheat. Jesus commands his angels: “Go to gathering the wheat into my storehouse.” (Matt. 13:30) Since 1919, anointed ones have been gathered into the restored Christian congregation. For those anointed Christians who will be alive at the end of this system of things, the final gathering will take place when they receive their heavenly reward."

In 1919 anointed ones have been gathered into the storehouse
The storehouse is the Christian Congregation. (Anointed members of Jehovah's Witnesses)
The gathering will be Complete when the Final member of the Wheat Class receives his/her heavenly reward. - At the end of this system of things.

Paragraph 13 - "Third, weeping and gnashing. After the angels bundle the weeds, what happens? Speaking about the condition of the weed class, Jesus states: “There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be.” (Matt. 13:42) Is that happening right now? No. Today, Christendom, as part of the harlot, still says about herself: “I sit a queen, and I am no widow, and I shall never see mourning.” (Rev. 18:7) Indeed, Christendom feels very much in charge, even presuming to ‘sit as a queen’ atop the class of political leaders. Presently, those represented by the weeds are boasting, not weeping. But that is about to change."

As a composite group / the Weed Class is still being gathered, the Weed Class has not reached its full number.
The Weed Class in the future are said to be Weeping and Gnashing.
A very important Parallel scripture to compare is Luke 13:28. If you'd like read this, meditate on it, and let me know what you think this means. This Scripture cannot be reconciled easily with any current Watchtower Teaching.

Paragraph 14 - " During the great tribulation, after all organized false religion has been destroyed, former adherents will run for cover but will find no secure place to hide. (Luke 23:30; Rev. 6:15-17) Then, realizing that there is no escape from destruction, they will weep in desperation and ‘gnash their teeth’ in anger. As Jesus foretells in his prophecy about the great tribulation, at that dark moment, they “will beat themselves in lamentation."

After the Great Tribulation, all Organized False Religion will be Destroyed.
Former Individual human members of Organized False Religion will run but have no place to hide.
By this statement "realizing that there is no escape from destruction" it is confirming that these humans will be receive destruction.
By using the Term "Weep and Gnash" their teeth, they are connected to the Weed Class from Paragraph 13

Paragraph 15 - "Fourth, pitched into the furnace. What will happen to the bundles of weeds? The angels “will pitch them into the fiery furnace.” (Matt. 13:42) That means complete destruction. Hence, those former adherents of false religious organizations will be destroyed during the final part of the great tribulation, Armageddon."

Now regarding the Bundles of Weeds.
The Angels will pitch these Bundles into the Fiery Furnace.
Being tossed into the Fiery Furnace means Complete Destruction.
By using the words Complete Destruction the Watchtower is Postulating that the "Fiery Furnace" is Gehenna / Lake of Fire.

Notice the Lexicon for πυρός — 28 Occ. which occurs 28 times in the NT. It only accompanies The Lake of Fire 5 times in Revelation. Each of these times the word Fire is proceeded with "Lake of"
With this Reasoning, you could argue that in Daniel 3:21 shows that Shadrach, Meshach, and A·bedne·go were tossed into the lake of fire.

5. This event will happen at the final stage of the Tribulation at Armageddon. All quotes (Excluding 68 KM which is linked) are taken from a combination of 3 Sources - 1874 - 1961 Watchtower and Related Publications Watchtower Library 2012 wol.jw.org Below are additional quotes from past Organization Articles - All quotes (Excluding 68 KM which is linked) are taken from a combination of 3 Sources - 1874 - 1961 Watchtower and Related Publications Watchtower Library 2012 wol.jw.org

"Only Jehovah’s Witnesses, those of the anointed remnant and the “great crowd,” as a united organization under the protection of the Supreme Organizer, have any Scriptural hope of surviving the impending end of this doomed system dominated by Satan the Devil. - w89 9/1 18-22
You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth—But How? To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it.- w83 2/15 12-15
Yes, today, with Armageddon staring us in the face, we must keep in mind the sobering thought that millions, even billions, of lives may shortly come to a swift and decisive end, putting their onetime owners beyond the reach of any expression of love on our part.
Are You Prepared for Survival? Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah’s universal organization. w06 5/15 21-25
There are billions of people who do not know Jehovah. Many of them in ignorance practice things that God’s Word shows to be wicked. If they persist in this course, they will be among those who perish during the great tribulation. Yet, Jehovah takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, nor should we. (Ezekiel 33:11) As long as time permits, we endeavor to help such people to learn and apply Jehovah’s ways. w93 10/1 15-20
“Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them . . . are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.” Yes, the destruction of the gross sinners in those cities was eternal, as will be the destruction of the wicked at the end of the present system of things. w90 4/15 16-21
Kingdom Ministry 1968 Mar p.4 Do you remember what we learned at the assemblies last summer? The majority of people living today will probably be alive when Armageddon breaks out, and there are no resurrection hopes for those who are destroyed then. So, now more than ever, it is vital not to ignore that spirit of , wanting to do more. http://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/tracts/Kingdomministry/1968_Kingdom_Ministry.pdf
All such idle and troublesome behavior can distract us from the God-assigned work of Kingdom preaching. If we stop actively supporting Jehovah’s work, then we start following Satan. There is no middle ground. - http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011524
But if we were to draw away from Jehovah’s organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation and true joy. - w93 9/15
The Kind of Persons Approved for God’s New Order Only Christian witnesses of Jehovah who successfully pass this test will survive and come forth like fire-refined gold for God’s use in his precious new order.w75 12/15 752-758
But Jehovah God has also provided his visible organization, his “faithful and discreet slave,” made up of spirit-anointed ones, to help Christians in all nations to understand and apply properly the Bible in their lives. Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do. - w81 12/1 27
Bible students need to get acquainted with the organization of the “one flock” Jesus spoke about at John 10:16 . They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah’s organization is essential to their salvation. (Rev. 7:9, 10, 15) Therefore, we should start directing our Bible students to the organization as soon as a Bible study is established. km 11/90 p.1 par.1
What will happen to young children at Armageddon? - The Bible does not directly answer that question, and we are not the judges. However, the Bible does show that God views the young children of true Christians as “holy.” God does not want anyone to be destroyed, so he is having a warning sounded now to benefit both parents and children. Would it not be wise for parents to pursue a course that would result in their children being looked on with favor by God both now and at Armageddon? - Reasoning Book p.48 Armageddon
In fact, with God’s day of judgment so near today, all the world should ‘keep silent before the Sovereign Lord Jehovah’ and hear what he says through the “little flock” of Jesus’ anointed followers and their companions, his “other sheep.” (Luke 12:32 ; John 10:16 ) Annihilation awaits all who will not listen and who thereby set themselves against rule by God’s Kingdom. - w01 2/15 p.14 par.10

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Apognophos

Crazyguy and ADCMS, you should read blondie's quotes again. The Society is not saying that those who do not hear the message will survive.

Be Honest About This Doctrinal Matter

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