Still hoping for an answer to my blindingly obvious question chris.
Preterism
by Chris Tann 67 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Chris Tann
Cofty, sorry for the delay. Believe me I know where your coming from. I doubt the Bible for the exact reasons you specify. Why does it have to take over 2000 years for God to wipe out wickedness? If the savior came, lets have mankinds salvation! What keeps me hanging on are a few things. There's something different about the Bible, it has had such a great positive influence on so many people around the world for thousands of years.( I know, it also has had a negative effect as well, but I feel the problem with that lies with the individual).
The Bible does read as accurate historic information, not fanciful fiction. There is evidence to support certain prophecies that were fulfilled. To me, the Bible is too much of an enduring, influential book to dismiss. What other religious book ,besides the Koran, has had such a life changing effect on humanity for thousands and thousands of years?
There are good points to support the Bibles claim, and good points to discredit it. But to me, neither side is 100% in its claims. Therefore I will continue to search both sides of the argument. Hoping one day it will be as clear as that the sun is hot, nobody can dispute that fact.
So the Bible is true Pistoff, then this gives me answers, and understanding of who made me.
To Designs: many things in the Bible are obscure, however, Paul does say that we see in a hazy outline or as a riddle,until what is perfect comes. So, what is perfect has not come yet. Perhaps this is Gods' way. We may not agree that it makes sense, but if it is from the all intelegent being, then of course we think that way. And perhaps God will reveal everything to everyone and all will be given a fair chance to decide if they want it or not. The Bible may just be for those who dont need 100% clarity, and will follow it on faith.
It could be that they will just receive special privileges, while those who need 100% truth revealed will get perfect everlasting life, just not the same privileges. But now I'm speculating, and we cant live our lives on that. My question is why does it matter to those that Iam hanging on to the Bible? It sure doesn't matter to me that your not.
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cofty
Thanks for your response Chris.
I disagree that the bible is accurate or that it contains any fulfilled prophecy. On the contrary it is full of errors and important contradictions. It is scientifically wrong. It promotes ethics that ought to be repugnant to any resonable person.
The fact that it has influenced millions of people is not impressive. That only proves how gullible most people are.
Jesus was adamant that the fall of Jerusalem would be followed immediately by his return in kingdom glory. He had men like Peter abandon their wives, children and businesses to follow him around preaching a false prophecy. After his death the early church waited in vain.
Jesus was a failure. Preterism is grasping at straws in the same way Adventists came up an invisible parousia in 1844 and the Bible Students did the same after 1914.
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Chris Tann
Cofty-your coments about the Bible being full of errors,contradictions, scientificalyy wrong,etc... is how you and others interpret things. I can take the same issues and interpret them to support the Bible. We will go back and forth quoting "experts",interpreting what they say, differently,and nothing will really ever be settled. Why? Because there is nothing out there that is a smoking gun in proving one side or the other.
If you are saying Jesus said he prophesied that he would return after the fall of Jerusalem, then you have to admit he foretold Jerusalem would be destroyed soon...and it was. He mentioned that his presence would be as lighting striking in a far place,unseeable by the human eye, but like lighting ,even far away you see its effects; the sky lighting up from east to west. He also compared it to a corpse far off from sight.You know its thier, though, by the birds circling high above it- Matt.24:26-28. In Matt. 24:29 Jesus uses apocalyptic language which is found in the Hebrew prophets concerning a kingdom coming and conquering another. This was the Romans against Jerusalem. He shows that this event signaled his return, then he would gather his holy ones... to heaven.
Just because there is no record of faithful ones going to heaven,doesn't necessarily mean it didn't happen.
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Tiresias
Hello Chris Tann,
Superb synopsis of Preterism. For the benefit of others, I will chime in my understanding of this optic.
Preterism simply means “the past.” It interprets the prophecies of the Bible as events which have already happened. It is a way of making meaning, making sense of the scriptures, and making sense of our experience in relation to those writings.
Preterism, I believe, can help us do the following:
1) Acquire mental calm and clarity (freedom from fear);
2) Develop our own authority to read and interpret the Bible (versus an imposed interpretation);
3) Assess the interpretations and claims of others.
But I also believe Preterism can help us view the scriptures in a light that is much more radical and intellectually stimulating than is common. Commenting on the Revelation, Preterist David Chilton stated:
“Revelation is a prophecy about imminent events – events that were about to break loose on the world of the first century. Revelation is not about nuclear warfare, space travel, or the end of the world. Again and again it specifically warns that “the time is near!” St. John wrote his book as a prophecy of the approaching destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, showing that Jesus Christ had brought the New Covenant and the New Creation. Revelation cannot be understood unless this fundamental fact is taken seriously” (Days of Vengeance, p.6) (Italics mine).
I also propose that Preterism can obviate "crimestop" (blocking a heretical thought before it gets started) "doublethink" (holding two contradictory thoughts at the same time. E.g. "this" generation means also "that" generation). I hope this thread continues for the contribution it can make to this most important hermeneutic.
Thank you, again! I can see that a lot of thought (and love!) went into your post. Some of my own biblical research is featured on my web site below.
T
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rebel8
Many of us were where you're at, xian. My advice is dedicate yourself to accepting the truth, no matter how uncomfortable it may be at first. Truth will set you free.
The Bible does read as accurate historic information, not fanciful fiction.
My goodness. Have you researched that? There's lots of inaccurate historical info in the Bible.
There is evidence to support certain prophecies that were fulfilled.
What evidence do you have that the Bible had a higher accuracy rate than anyone else who guessed about the future using vague predictions?
What other religious book ,besides the Koran, has had such a life changing effect on humanity for thousands and thousands of years?
We were taught that ethnocentric belief. The answer is several. But I'm not sure how relevant that is to its truthiness. Let's test that logic?
What other website, besides Facebook, has had such a life changing effect on humanity? Therefore what it says is true.
What other drink, besides water, has had such a life changing effect on humanity? Therefore it's holy.
And then there's the narrow, cramped path.
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Tiresias
Hello CT,
As a musician, you will appreciate the lyrics to the song written by Lennie Kravitz and Mick Jagger, God Gave Me Everything I Want:
MICK JAGGER LYRICS
"God Gave My Everything"
You can see it in a clear blue sky
You can see it in a woman's eyes
You can hear it in your baby's cries
You can hear it in your lover's sighs
You can touch it in a grain of sand
Yeah hold it right there
In the palm of your hand
Feel it 'round you everyday
And hear what I've got to say
God gave me everything I want
Come on
I'll give it all to you
God gave me everything I want
Come on
I'll give it all to you
I saw it in the midnight sun
And I feel it in the race I won
And I hear it in the windy storm
And I feel it in the icy dawn
And I smell it the wine I taste
And I see it in my father's face
And I hear it in a symphony
And I feel it in the love
You show for meThe message for me: 'we see things, not as they are, but as we are.' I felt it was necceary to write this in response to the Bible bashing, Bible burning respondents who attempt to hijack your post. Keep up the good work!
T
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Cold Steel
Preterism is one of the reasons that no prophecy is subject to private interpretation. It is an example of teaching for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but denying the power of God.
Having discussed the relative merits of Preterism with its advocates, the chief problem one runs into is the great numbers of unfulfilled prophecies still staring man in the face. It’s foundation is based largely on John’s Apocalypse, which begins with the problematic passage: “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.”
Just a few verses later, he writes: “Behold, [the Lord] cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.”
Preterists reason that since these things were to shortly come to pass, they then must have already happened. The problem, of course, is that it didn’t happen; then or ever.
So how do Christians deal with this? First, since it’s inspired prophecy, it must have already happened in a way we don’t understand. Or, that the text was altered by overzealous scribes, which may be one of the reasons it was rejected by the Orthodox Christians. In this case the entire work would be corrupted and essentially useless.
A third option is that it was written specifically for those in the latter days — the only people who would be in a position to understand John’s words. I personally opt for this option. John wrote it to show “unto [the Lord’s] servants things which must shortly come to pass.” Thus, to those who lived in our day. Why would this interpretation be preferable to the others? Because John was present with the Lord throughout his ministry and knew the things that needed to come to pass before his coming with the clouds of heaven. For example:
- The destruction of the temple and Jerusalem by the Romans, something that had already come to pass.
- The scattering of Judah to nations of the earth, something which was taking place when he wrote these words.
- The Great Apostasy, in which the church would cease to exist among men. John, himself, indicated it would be generations in which the church, represented by a woman, would be caught away to escape the destruction of Satan.
- Its Restoration to the earth and the coming of Elijah. Some believed this to be John the Baptist, and fulfilled in the time of Jesus; however, John did not turn the hearts of the children to the fathers and vice versa. Besides, when comparing John to Elijah, as a forerunner, Jesus affirmed that “Elijah must return and restore all things.”
- Judah’s return to its ancestral homeland. This is presaged throughout the scriptures, both old and new testaments. King David prophesied this in Psalm 83:
Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God. For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head. They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones. They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance. For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee: The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes; Gebal, and Ammon, and Amalek; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre; Assur also is joined with them: they have helped the children of Lot.
This prophecy is one that would have stunned the followers of Edgar Cayce or Nostradamus (had they the foresight to utter it), but it has come to pass in our day. The ancient lands mentioned in this prophecy are the very nations that have combined against Israel. And their chief argument against the Jewish state is that it has no right to exist. In no other age of man — in no other point in history — has this prophecy seen fulfillment. In the past, the Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans and Turks have all vied for Jerusalem and claimed it as theirs. But in no case has Israel’s neighbors, when it was a state, ever before has sought to destroy it as a nation as it is doing now. And at the heart of it is a seething hatred of God, who has not cast off his people. Allah is not the God of Israel, but is the god of the Beast of Revelation, which is the dragon (Satan). Its great prophet stated, “The Hour [Day of Resurrection] will not arrive until you fight the Jews, until a Jew will hide behind a rock or tree and the rock and the tree will say: ‘Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!’”
Fanatical Muslims aren’t known for building beautiful cities, doing charitable work and furthering their religion in a way that would reflect love, tolerance, education and history. Their people tend to live in rubble, the cause of which is repeated war and jihad.
Preterism denies the incredible prophecies of things yet to be. When Ezekiel writes of Gog, the leader of an immense army that comes against Jerusalem in the latter days, the Lord asks Gog directly: Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them? Preterists would have a tough time pointing to the fulfillment of an event that the prophets of Israel foretold when it clearly has not yet happened. Ezekiel quotes the Lord as saying that Gog would go up against “the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations.” That can only be referring to Judah and Israel. The Lord also states that Israel “is brought forth out of the nations.” Again, the nations that will combine against Jerusalem: “Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet: Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.” These nations again correspond to the modern nations that now surround Israel.
There are many, many more prophecies that have not yet been fulfilled. Zechariah is another prophet who described the great war against Israel in the “in the latter years” when the Beast “shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste….”
The “latter years” that the Lord speaks of in Ezekiel is our day. The Jews have been gathered out of all nations and despite what the Palestinians contend, when the Jews began gathering back to Judea, the land was a dusty wasteland. Only after the Jews brought their wealth and built up the wasteland, as the scriptures foretold, did their Muslim neighbors begin to covet it. And after Gog’s defeat, Ezekiel writes, “I [will] make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel.” (Ezekiel 39:7)
Clearly, these and many other prophecies have not yet come to pass, so how can any Preterist gain a foothold in the scriptures when confronted with the above? Amos wrote, “For surely the Lord God will do nothing, save he reveal his secrets to his servants, the prophets.” (Amos 3:7) And since the world continued on after Jesus’ ascension into heaven, he must have meant the prophecies to extend to the latter times.
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.....“In the Name of Allah!”
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sunny23
^^Well........ummm yea.
A lot of presupositions and a dash of bigotry there. "First, since it’s inspired prophecy." Perhaps researching with a view that it isn't inspired will help one to look at it logically and with less bias? There are too many inconsistencies in the bible leading me to believe it isn't divinely inspired or that YHWH is coo-coo for cocoa puffs
Also I read your linked article about Islam being the Anti-Christ and its weak attempt at using select verses from Psalms, Daniel, and Zechariah to try and prove this...complete hogwash.
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Cold Steel
Well, you're entitled to your beliefs, but scripture follows a fairly consistent flow when it comes to prophecy. Ezekiel wrote, as if speaking directly to Gog: "Thus saith the Lord God; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them? And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face." Thus, we should expect to see numerous references throughout scripture to a great regional leader that in the latter times would sweep down on Israel with a crushing military force that God would intervene in. That we can do in Daniel, Isaiah, Zechariah, Revelation and other scriptures.
The topic, however, is on preterism, which contends that all prophecy given by the mouth of the prophets has already been fulfilled. Whether prophecy is of any value or is credible is another discussion. But it's wrong on your part (and others) to judge the Old and New Testament scriptures as extensions of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. The Jehovah's Witness point of view should be considered and then dismissed, as its teachings and conclusions are completely unsupported by scripture, revelation or tradition. To judge the actual Yahweh in the same light as what was and is now taught by Russle, Rutherford, Knorr and others is to build on a foundation of error, lies and reams of ridiculous exegeses that can never be discarded, as that would throw Russleism into complete chaos. I don't think Russle and others meant to lead others down the looneytunes path of scriptural misunderstanding.
Prophecy extends all the way to the time when Jesus' feet will stand atop the Mount of Olives and later, when the heathen will know that the God of Israel is the God of the whole Earth. To think it stopped at the destruction of Jerusalem is to completely miss the point of prophecy.
