900 Top Scientists Sign Statement Skeptical of Macro-Evolution

by Perry 128 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • cofty
    cofty

    What exactly do you mean by language in this context Perry?

    How much do you know already about the way the four nucleotides translate into 20 amino acids?

    Do you know the basics of redundancy of how 64 codons become 20 amino acids or how innumerable combinations of amino acids create protein molecules that all do identical tasks as enzymes despite their differences? Do you even understand what enzymes do?

    How about the comparison of nucleotides and amino acid sequences in molecules like Cytochrome C and the way it confirms evolutionary relationships?

    The word "language" is a metaphor. I need to know how much you know already so we can have a conversation.

  • Viviane
    Viviane

    So Cofty, Where did the DNA code language come from?

    Chemical interactions. It's not a code or a language, as such, with intelligence backing it. It's simple chemical interactions based on physics.

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Your DNA Code language question is just a trap to say that a code was designed by someone. If you refuse to read this entire rather short article, I will boil it down for even you-

    The code referred to is agreed upon by scientists in order to communicate about what DNA does.

    DNA is not a “code” in the normal sense of the word. We call it a code because doing so gives us an easy way to think of the process by which a strand of DNA is responsible for the building of a living thing.

    If DNA is a code, then so is every other molecule in the universe. It’s just the consistency of the laws of nature.

    So no, DNA is not a code. It is analogous to a code in enough ways that it makes sense for us to refer to things like the “genetic code,” but in the end, we’re just not talking about the kind of code that would make the theist argument valid.

    Those are excerpts from below.


    http://livinglifewithoutanet.com/2009/07/05/dna-is-not-a-code/

    DNA is Not a Code

    POSTED BY LIVING LIFE WITHOUT A NET ⋅ JULY 5, 2009 ⋅ 187 COMMENTS FILED UNDER CREATIONISM, DNA, DNA IS A CODE, EVOLUTION, GENETIC CODE, THEIST ARGUMENT

    Ok, yes it is… sort of.

    There’s been a rather tired argument making its way around the theist blogosphere of late, arguing that DNA is a code, and codes are designed things. The very fact of it being a code proves that there must have been someone who designed the code.

    As usual, this argument comes down to using words improperly. A code, by the strictest definition, is in fact something designed by intelligent beings. It is a system of symbols that either arbitrarily or by some system represent various things. The alphabet I’m using to write this blog is a code. There’s nothing about the individual letters that have any inherent meaning. They don’t do anything in and of themselves. By agreement between multiple humans, we have a legend, or a key, which most of us learned in grammar school. By using this legend, we can look at anything in the code “English” and through substitution, come to the knowledge of the concepts sybolized by the various letters.

    This is the traditional idea of a code, and it is what theists think they mean when they argue that DNA is a code. The thing is, DNA is not that kind of a code. DNA is a a polymer, which is composed of individual chemical units called nucleotides. There are four types of these nucleotides, and we humans have decided to call them adenine, guanine, cytosine, and thymine. These names are not entirely arbitrary, but in the end, there’s nothing magical about them. We could call them Blob, Clob, Dob, and Emu, and they’d still be the same. Our language — the code we humans use to communicate — is just a way for us to give each other information and keep things separate in our own minds.

    The nucleotides in DNA are often said to be the “blueprints” or “code” which define a sequence of messenger RNA which in turn defines at least one protein. In a sense, these proteins are the building blocks of life, and DNA is the “code” which determines the qualities of the life that will be built.

    The problem with the theist argument, however, is that the DNA code is not arbitrary, and it does not rely at all on the agreement of sentient beings. In fact, it is exactly the same in nature as any other dynamic chemical process. When you see an explosion on TV, you’re watching a chemical reaction that was controlled by the same kind of “code.” Crystals grow based on such a code. Stars give off light and energy from the same kind of code.

    All DNA is, to the chagrin of creationists, is a very, very complicated organic molecule that can react in a staggeringly large number of ways with other organic molecules. Unlike an explosion or a crystal, which can be described mathematically with a few simple formulas, the process of building a living thing is several orders of magnitude more complicated. It takes perhaps 10 billion bits to convey all the necessary information needed to build a human, and the process is never really finished until the human dies, so we’re talking about a very, very long process by comparison with an explosion, and billions more unique steps than the formation of a crystal.

    Yet, it’s the same process. This molecule, when in the presence of that molecule, will bond and make this new molecule. It’s just chemistry.

    The thing is, we humans recognize the complexity of the chemical process we call life, and we notice that it is not completely dissimilar from the process by which we build a skyscraper or a watch. We have a set of instructions, and we refer back to them throughout the whole process of putting materials together in very specific ways, until we have a finished product. We like to argue that messenger RNA is “referring to the instructions” to figure out which protein to build in the same way, but it’s not. Neither DNA nor RNA is sentient. They are both just doing what chemicals do. DNA is more akin to a catalyst than a set of instructions. That is, the DNA stays essentially the same throughout the building process, but it is facilitating chemical reactions the whole time it is part of a living thing.

    So, here is the ultimate problem with this particular theist argument. DNA is not an arbitrary set of symbols that “stand for” something else that will be interpreted through some kind of a legend. It is a set of chemicals which are nonthinking, and have no choice but to do what they do, in the same way that a crystal has no choice but to grow when in the presence of the appropriate aqueous solution. DNA is just a very, very, very complicated molecule that happens to be capable of facilitating incredibly complex sets of chemical reactions.

    Sure, it seems magical that something as simple as four little nucleotides could be responsible for all the diverse life on the planet, but our sense of wonder at the versatility of carbon shouldn’t woo us into the false belief that incredible versatility is equivalent to design. DNA is not a “code” in the normal sense of the word. We call it a code because doing so gives us an easy way to think of the process by which a strand of DNA is responsible for the building of a living thing.

    That’s it. When we look at a particular sequence of nucleotides, we can recognize that the chemical reaction they facilitate will produce a certain protein. This is no different from looking at a few grams of sodium or potassium and recognizing that in the presence of water, they will react in very specific ways to produce a violent exothermic reaction. If DNA is a code, then so is every other molecule in the universe. It’s just the consistency of the laws of nature. This, in the presence of that, will do the other.

    So no, DNA is not a code. It is analogous to a code in enough ways that it makes sense for us to refer to things like the “genetic code,” but in the end, we’re just not talking about the kind of code that would make the theist argument valid. Sorry, theists, but you fail on this one, too.

  • Perry
    Perry

    What exactly do you mean by language in this context Perry ?

    You suddenly have a problem with language? You didn't have a problem with a language definition before I asked you about the DNA lanuage code, did you?. Now all of the sudden, you are having a language crisis. Oh dear.

    I will go back to ignoring you Cofty. Or, you can man up and answer the question. Or, contrary to thousands of scientific characterizations you can along with Vivane and OTWO simply declare in a state of imagined majesty that DNA is not a code and therefore conclude in your own abyss that the question is not valid and therefore not worthy of your answering. Which is it?

  • designs
    designs

    Hug grandpa Adam for us Perry.....

  • cofty
    cofty

    I did answer your question Perry. I told you that words like "language" and "code" are metaphors in this context.

    There is no magic. It's just electrons doing their thing. Read OTWO's article.

    I asked you some specific questions about what you already know about the basics of genetics.

    You are afraid of an open and honest conversation about science so you will resort to cowardly excuses for ignoring me.

    Your dishonesty is duly noted.

  • Yan Bibiyan
    Yan Bibiyan
    "900 Top Scientists Sign Statement Skeptical of Macro-Evolution"

    Appeal to Popularity, Appeal to Authority...have your pick...

    We don't know, therfore Unicorns god

  • Apognophos
    Apognophos

    Here's another way to answer the question of where the information in DNA came from: the environment. Most people would agree that the Grand Canyon wasn't created directly by an intelligence, even if they believe in God; rather they would agree that it was carved out by water over a long period of time.

    The information in DNA is a set of blueprints which were refined in a sequence of organisms living over billions of years. As those organisms reproduced, generational mutations in their genetic code were shaped by the environment in the direction of what helped those organisms survive. The ones whose mutations were not beneficial died out.

    So rather than it being an amazing thing that all this "carefully designed" data exists in the form of DNA, it's actually a natural result of the way our universe is built, every bit as natural as the way the Grand Canyon formed. The information, the complexity of that data, is just the result of long years of interaction with the outside world, much like the steady accumulation of wrinkles on our face as we age.

    That's not to say that it isn't amazing that the universe accumulates order and assembles information like it does. I do think that's pretty amazing. But if it didn't, we wouldn't be here to discuss it. So if there have been a billion universes before this one, or if they exist alongside us, but they do not tend towards order like ours does, then they're just a whole bunch of non-living noise.

    There's no one alive in those chaotic universes to propose that they must have been created because "Look at all this complex stuff, it must have been designed". Our universe has just enough order to allow us to exist and contemplate ourselves, but just enough disorder to show that this is not a carefully-designed universe made by a loving, attentive God.

  • LisaRose
    LisaRose

    Well said Apog.

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