900 Top Scientists Sign Statement Skeptical of Macro-Evolution

by Perry 128 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • metatron
    metatron

    I've tried to plow thru this "discussion" and I don't understand it.

    It looks like a bunch of educated people signed off on a statement saying that they are skeptical that Darwinism explains the diversity of life.

    So what?

    Do we know if all of these people are theists? Are many of them agnostics? Do they all reject "macroevolution" or do they simply question whether Darwinism is a complete explanation for all life?

    I accept evolution as a fact, macro and micro and I don't see any problem with agreeing with pursuing further explanations beyond Darwinism to explain the reality of how life got here. Since "Creation" has no moral or ethical basis evident in it, I am interested in scientific answers, not theological.

    And furthermore..... quietly accepting 'microevolution' (what the heck is that?) means that you accept evolution (!!!) and that your debate is all about a matter of degree.

    metatron

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    Firstly, all evolution states is that animals change over time. THAT IS IT.

    We can dig down into the earth and see that modern animals aren't in earlier earths history (there are no rabbits in dinosaur times) and the animals that were in ancient times aren't here now (there are no giant sharks now) , but by chance.....lol....there are animals that look like both in between. Also by DNA we can see that these animals are all relatives and are present today in some cases. Darwin noticed that the bones found showed similarities and tiny changes over time and that there was a process in place that obvioulsy introduces small changes to species over time.

    That is it!

    Tha is ALL evolution is.

    Now we can see DNA and cellular function and we have worked out how these tiny changes come about. When copying the dna as our cells constantly do, they sometimes read the 4 letter coding wrong, so e.g. instead of reading TACG AATT it may accidentslly get copied as TACG AATAAAAAAAAAAA and that may result in sickle cell shaped red blood cells instead of round ones, or a difference in colour of skin, or from having a hairy body to having no hair etc etc.

    That is all evolution is. If that small change in DNA is no good for you in the enviroment you live you will likely not do well, if the accidental dna copying leads to something beneficial e.g. a hairy body in an enviroment getting colder.....guess what.... your genes will survive better and therefore the hairy colony will grow and eventually dominate.

    Many that don't understand evolution recognise that otjers don't either and so add more to the mix. Where and how life began on earth IS NOTHING TO DO WITH EVOLUTION, and neither is the big bang. All evolution is, is the study of animals changing over time. The reason it caused a stir in religious circles 200yrs ago is that people thought the earth was 6000yrs old, that the animals as they are now were made by god in eden, therefore animals could not possibly have changed without gods hand.

    As for an argument from authority and the petition.....

    I have heard a doctor say that humans used to all be 600ft tall, 6000 years ago.

    I have met and spoke with a world renound christian biologist expert that admitted to me that if they saw evidence that contradicted the bible, they would have to reject the evidence. Ot was the last thing he said to me. I was recording the interview as a project on medical ethics and evolution.The next day he requested I destroyed the tape and formally removed permission for me to use anything he had said. This chap contributed to textbooks as an expert in enzymes. Enzyme science is hugely based on evolution. The most embarrassing thing he said to me was that Dawkins was a fool because of his book title "The selfish gene."...why? because genes can't have feelings.... My jaw fell.

    He gave me two reasons for denying evolution, one a hamster gene ( he couldn't rememeber the name or details) that he heard couldn't be explained by evolution in the 90's he admitted he had not researched it since hearing that. Secondly he said there was a rock formation in devon that in one section had an unexpected formation, indicating geological dating globally is wrong. Again he didnt have any details other than he saw it in a christian documentary once. I swear this was his evidence! I asked if it was possible the video was bias, misinformed, he said likely not. I asked when he watched the video and he said the 80's. I asked if he had in any way researched to see what geologists say about this formation now and he said no.

    My point.......

    "Scientist" means nothing, evidence means EVERYTHING.

    It is impossible to find ANY evidence that the sun goes around the earth because it doesn't. It was believed to be true becuase of the bible and tradition. Evolution has 200 years of evidence behind it, growing by the day with NOT ONE piece of controversial opposing evidence found to this dsy. It is impossible for it to be untrue because we witness it taking place.

    Evolution tales a long time and so without understanding evolution and its mechanism it is hard to see what evidence is. Every single fossil is evidence for evolutiom. If you took a photo of a human every day of its life, from conception you could look at photo one and see a single cell and the last photo and see an aged human, yet there will not be a 'missing link', a half cell half pensioner image. Every photo is a missing link and then ever photo could itself be broken down into changes taking place every hour, every minute, every second etc etc etc. So likewise looking at the fossil remains of the evolution of the whale there is no half whale half mammal, the changes in the species took place over millions of years with tiny changes every generation. Just like the imperceivable changes in a human by day but yet result in amazing change over time. A single cell became an old person. Think about how much change that is, likewise animals evolve too.

  • Perry
    Perry

    Personally, I enjoy reading about recovering evolutionists far more than debating. - Perry

    Do you not realise how flawed that line of thought is? - LP97

    There are no flaws in preferences. This is just what I prefer, neither being right or wrong. I did my college work in sociology. Though I am a businessman now, I am still interested in how people react leaving varied social constructs. There is no "flaw" in observation..... to the contrary, a great deal can be learned.

    Having experienced a drastic paradigm shift myself when I left the Watchtower and eventually believed God; I am interested in others who have experienced similar paradigm shifts in their beliefs. This is why this is posted under the "beliefs" section.

    For the sociologist (in me), he is more interested in the lives of those that experience such a shift, rather than the lack of proofs that would cause these scientists to abandon the standard "party line" theory of evolution.

    I hope that helps to clarify where I'm coming from.

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    Scientists do not do party lines, you could not be more misinformed if you tried.

    Scientists hunt for gaps in 'the party line' aka the evidence and theories.

    Scientists pay their rent by finding faults and problems in theories.

    Over half of scientists are religious.

    If a scientist was to find A SINGLE piece of evidence against evolution, biology science would EXCITINGLY grind to a halt and they would get a Nobel prize for the finding.

    Perry if you even KNEW of a SINGLE piece of evidence proving evolutiin wrong,we would hear about it.

    You have it all ass backward because of your world beliefs.It is dissapointing to come back after all this time and see you still can't even define evolution Perry. Shame buddy. Have you not learned anything from your experience with Watchtower, arguments and opinions from authority are insignificant. A tiny number of 'scientists' (by what definition)of various expertise signing an a petition is simply....bizzare, a little embarassing and totally valueless.

    Evidence is the ONLY reliable guide.

  • Oubliette
    Oubliette

    S&R: "Scientist" means nothing, evidence means EVERYTHING.

    There is a difference between what we observe and what we infer. Our biases and beliefs tend to color our perceptions. Also, our data recording devices (our senses) are extremely limited).

    The whole point of SCIENCE is to try to adopt a way of thinking, a methodology, a philosophy if you will, that is objective (at least as much as is humanly possible).

    S&R: It is impossible to find ANY evidence that the sun goes around the earth because it doesn't. It was believed to be true becuase of the bible and tradition.

    I don't think I've ever disagreed with S&R before, but I'm going to now. The reason people used to believe that the sun went around the Earth is because that is how it appears to the ignorant and uneducated mind. This is almost certainly pre-Biblical and not the other way around.

    Regarding the idea of a geocentric universe, we now know that is wrong and there is abundant evidence to the contrary. Hell, it's not even helio-centric. The fact is, the Universe is so damn big we have no idea where "the center" is.

    Again, a goal of science is to use our intellect to get outside of the limitations of our physical perceptions. One way we do this is by developing tools to extend our senses, for example: telescopes, microscopes, electromagnetic sensors that extend our range of "vision" all the way from radio waves to X-rays.

  • designs
    designs

    You should know then Perry that what you found religiously is what you wanted to find. The Three Minds, remember that study.

  • Perry
    Perry

    It is dissapointing to come back after all this time and see you still can't even define evolution Perry. Shame buddy.

    This is a perfect example of the kinds of things that fascinate a sociologist. The experience of "disappointment" in others unlike yourself and inflicting "shame". This is antisocial behavior, it is narcissitic, and dysfunctional.

    BTW, hope your new medical practice is off to a good start

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    Perry, a friend/parent/observer can be dissapointed snd ashamed with someone without being antisocial, narcissitic, and dysfunctional.

    I want you to see the evidence I have seen. It is so very frustrating to come back and see you still desperate to undermine something you can still not as yet even describe or define, evidence that you simply don't understand the theory.

    I have zero doubt, that if you understood the theory and saw the evidence, you would accept it as true. But deciding to not do so will result in you never having an objective, honest, appraisal on a topic you devote hours of effort to

    As a human, it is dissapointing and a little sad to observe such self constricting behaviour. It is imdeed a shame. If that seems psychologically bizzare to you, then no explination will suffice for your lack of appreciation for my perspective.

    I must end by saying. before you are tempted to hold this reply as a mirror up to me, I have researched and read every anti-evolution argument and issue I could find. I disagreed with and laughed at my first evolution lectures as an adult. I have stood your side of the fence, give my side a go, start by at least knowing what evolution is.

  • Perry
    Perry

    Most of your paragraphs in the above post begin with "I". This thread isn't about you, get it? It is not about me either.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Why is it when scientific discoveries reveal certain unknowns, religionists come up and say " See this

    proves there is a supernatural creator and thats his work " ?

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