Dateline and Perspective

by non_trias_theos 49 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

NeonMadman

You are being reductionistic. You are guilty of nothing-but-ness. Paul preached about God's kingdom too.

jw preach the same message as Paul and Jesus. But the good news has many different facets.
The good news that Paul preached was centered around the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus and the forgiveness of sins. This message is utterly absent from most of the preaching of Jehovah's Witnesses. That doesn't mean that they deny those teachings, but they strongly emphasize other, less important points in their public preaching, while they downplay the importance of the actual heart of the good news. In so doing, they are preaching "another gospel," and are accursed by God.
If you really believe that JW's are preaching the same good news as did Jesus and Paul, perhaps you can point out some scriptures where either Jesus or Paul preached any of the following:
1. God's Kingdom would be established in the heavens in 1914.
2. We must seek out and associate with God's organization in order to be saved.
3. God will destroy anyone who is not a member of his true organization and absolutely, unquestioningly obedient to it, no matter how corrupt that organization may be.
4. "Wicked persons" are defined as anyone who is not a member of God's true organization.
5. We need to calculate the end of the "Gentile Times" according to a flawed method using non-historical dates in order to understand Bible prophecy.
I could go on, but these beliefs are central to the teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses, and they are utterly unscriptural. These ideas will be drilled into the head of any prospective convert in great detail, while the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and the forgiveness of sins - the heart of the Christian Good News as preached by Paul - will be mentioned in passing, at best.
When Paul encouraged his nonChristian contemporaries to repent, did he tell them that the wicked he was condemning was they?
Did you think that he was telling them to repent of their good works? Obviously, by telling them to repent, he was bringing their wickedness to their attention! Of course, unlike JW's, he did not attempt to pigeonhole them as "wicked ones" because they did not belong to his organization (funny how he never actually mentioned that organization, huh?). Rather, he recognized that they were sinners whom God loved and for whom Christ died, and encouraged them to become reconciled to God through the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Again, a far cry from the work of JW's today.
Non also notices that you soften your claim now. You know that the elements you mention are not totally excluded from the jw message.
I never said they were totally excluded from the message of Jehovah's Witnesses, but I dare say the average householder who receives periodic visits from JW's over the course of a lifetime will likely never hear about those elements from the JW at the door. Perhaps if he accepts a "Bible study" (in quotation marks because the Bible is not studied at these sessions), he may read in the publication about the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, but these will not be presented as the center of the message as they should be.
If jw are God's organization, you will not be able to topple them with some puny Dateline show. But even from a sociological and psychological viewpoint, it is very doubtful that dateline will have the effect you want it to. Look at the history of the Catholic church. It has committed atrocious acts for hundreds of years and with what result? It has more zealots today than it ever did. One day the Catholics might fall in this world. But it will not be because of some show like Dateline.
So, it sounds as if you are saying here that, even though the JW's may be a filthy, corrupt false religion like the Catholic Church, a single Dateline show will not have the ability to destroy the organization. Unfortunately, you may be right about that. But Dateline will certainly do some damage and open some eyes. I'd hate to be a JW trying to go from door to door this morning.
As far as JW's being God's organization: There is no scriptural evidence that God works through an organization. I suggest you download this article and read it over: http://www.brci.org/Publications/Org96.pdf
The word "organization" does not appear in the Bible, and neither does the concept of a monolithic, controlling organization such as the JW's have today. Nonetheless, one thing is crystal clear to me. If God did choose to work through an organization, it would not be a corrupt, hypocritical organization such as the JW's. So if God does have an organization, we must look elsewhere for it.
Tom
"Gentlemen, he said, I don't need your organization, I've shined your shoes, I've moved your mountains and marked your cards. But Eden is burning"
--Bob Dylan
non_trias_theos

$$$Non_compis_mentis asked, "How does one define insanity?"
Got a mirror?$$$
Very funny.
An image in a mirror is not a definition, dude. Do you need a definition for "define" and "definition"? Got a Websters?
dubla

non-
Who in there right mind would take children to a known molester?
if its covered up you wouldnt know this person was a molester, that was one of my points. the elders are admittedly discarding accusations of molestation, so which of your "brothers" can you trust now? the man at the legal dept. said to ask the brother, and if he says he didnt do it....drop it. is that good enough for your comfort level with your fellow "brothers"? how many cases have simply been "dropped" becauase the "brother" said he didnt do it?
A Christian must forgive repentant sinners. That is the message of Christ. Non does not like homosexuality. But what if people like Joelbear are reinstated to congregation and they still have a tendecy to like men. Would non want to go visit joelbear? Should he go alone, even though bear has repented? See the point.
yes i see the point....and the point is that jws will try to make sweeping analogies that simply do not fit. joels sexual preference is quite different from a man who has raped little helpless girls, and still has the craving to do so again. do you think you would be defenseless against joel? do you think your little daughter would be defenseless with an old man trying to rape her? big difference. you can put all sins on the same plane if you so choose, but it doesnt make them the same in practicality for day to day life in this world.
aa
Hmmm

Duns,
There are two very important things you said that I'd like to address.
Non would not say that past policies of letting the elders handle matters turns jw into pedo paradise. Who in there right mind would take children to a known molester?
That's exactly the point! WT policy prevents the molester from being "known". US law requires sex offenders to register, and prevents them from living close to schools, etc... so there's a chance you'll KNOW about the molester and avoid him.
If you take your daughter over someone's house (male or female) they could have a track record a mile long and you wouldn't know it! The elders might make sure NEVER to let THEIR kids alone with this person, but they're under the same silly strictures as the victims. They're watching you march your beloved children off to the lion's den, and their fear of losing their position mutes them. Were I you, I'd only let my children visit families that the elder's children visit. Of course, if the molester is an elder, it gets a little trickier.
non is one person and the apostates on the board here outnumber him 4000 to 1.
Quit being such a big baby. You've got YouKnow and FredHall, so it's 4000 to 3!!!
[Edit: I forgot accuracy: 4000 to 4. The odds are improving for you all the time.]
Hmmm
Nathan Natas

Non_compos_mentis aked, "Got a Websters?"
Got a mirror?
Seek within.
morrisamb

Dear Non, over 20 years ago, I would have responded just the way you are, even though I had been a victim for 11 years.
But I want you to look at this statement you made:
The elders have simply tried to help all concerned--both the sinner and the victims. They may have made mistakes in their loving efforts to be helpful to all concerned.
Then read this section in my book, Father's Touch. I know you want to believe the Elders have done everything they could. At the very least, perhaps the Dateline episode will help sincere ministers/Elders to do more:
Papa is called into a meeting with three Elders. Mama is angry with Ronny for breaking the silence. Her private humiliation is about to go outside her inner circle. The four of us are told we must testify before the Elders. Ronny is fifteen, I’m twelve, Marina is ten, and Erik is seven.
Papa confesses to the accusations. How could he not? Why would his four children lie? Why would Mother? Besides, his silence upon Erik’s disclosure had been an admission of guilt two years earlier. His quiet admission of guilt now is really not that surprising. Perhaps his silence serves a purpose. Wouldn’t a self-defensive posture or an antagonistic approach add to an already explosive situation?
My naiveté and innocence are thrown into the public arena for the first time. I feel like a witness for the prosecution. I’m excited that our secret is finally coming out. “My life will change for the better,” I tell myself. “God’s Elders will hug me and tell me God loves me just like Jesus did to his disciples.”
We four children are called to the hall to tell the Elders about Papa’s abuse of us. I am nervous but not frightened. After Ronny leaves the room at the end of the Hall, I am called in.
I walk into a tiny room with five chairs. I sit before three men of God. I completely believe that these men are God’s chosen Elders. I know Mama believes in them. Even Papa believes in them. I cannot, will not, lie to God’s helpers.
“You realize how important it is to tell the truth? It is God’s will that you do,” one Elder tells me.
“Yes!” I promise.
“Describe the sexual acts with your father. What did you do exactly? How often? How many years?”
As odd as I feel, I am enjoying this attention. Thinking Donald describes The Game perfectly. I’ve repeated this monologue before. Explaining Erik’s disclosure to Mama is a rehearsal for this revelation now. After all, she asked the same kinds of questions but when we told her, she cried. I am on a stage again, but this time God is listening. I know what I say has significance. Why, I do not know, but I know just the same.
No one asks me how I feel or how I felt. No one touches me. The questions are cold, blunt, and matter of fact. I haven’t the nerve to ask questions. As always, Thinking Donald has no tears.
“Thank you. We’ll call you back later.” I am dismissed.
An Elder steps out of the small room.
“Next, Marina.”
The assembly line of D’Haene children continues into the back room. I sit on a chair in the main hall. To say I have no comprehension of what is happening to me is an understatement.
“Papa is bad and he’s going to be punished,” Mama tells me.
I’m involved in something very bad. I feel like I’m in a television courtroom drama and the show is long and boring. I can’t turn the channel! Erik is sitting next to me waiting his turn. I kick the legs of the chair in front of me…waiting and waiting.
Finally Mama is called in to answer questions.
“I did not tell anyone because I was embarrassed for de kids, for me, even for Daniel. What would you Elders t’ink of us? I kept everyt’ing to myself for so long, I didn’t know what to do or how to feel. I know dat Daniel influenced me to keep everyt’ing quiet.”
“It was very wrong of you not to report the situation to us.”
“I truly feel horrible and guilty and pray God will forgive me. I am ashamed. Yes, at first I was shocked and angry at Ronny for telling and den I knew it was de best t’ing to do. But still I was ashamed and did not want many to know.”
Within days, another meeting is called. Once again, I’m in the little room with the big men. This time Mama and my brothers and sister are with me. One of the men starts talking.
“Your father will be disfellowshipped and your mother publicly reproved for conduct unbecoming a Christian….When your father comes to meetings, he will sit at the back of the hall. You will sit with him and your mother. Remember, you must still honor your father as head of the household.”
I am dizzy. “Mother publicly reproved…sit at the back of the hall …honor your Father.” I can’t hear the rest of what this Elder is mumbling.
I am happy. I understand Papa’s excommunication will mean he is no longer a Jehovah’s Witness. That makes sense. God’s people do not play The Game with their children. They also don’t ask their children to lie about it to their Mama.
I am confused. How shall we “honor” our father? He never talks to us unless we play The Game. Does God expect my siblings and me to honor our father in some things but not in others?
I am sad. Mama’s being punished because of my testimony. Why? I don’t understand! Mama’s hurting and Papa has something to do with it. I have something to do with my mother’s pain.
How can I feel sad yet happy at the same time? The big secret is out, but a dark cloud continues to hover over us. I am afraid of these men, but God must have told them to do this.
copyright 2002, American Book Publishing
www.fatherstouch.com
http://www.pdbookstore.com/HealingRecovery.htm
[email protected] (Melanie)
non_trias_theos

$$$The good news that Paul preached was centered around the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus and the forgiveness of sins. This message is utterly absent from most of the preaching of Jehovah's Witnesses.$$$
No it is not.
$$$If you really believe that JW's are preaching the same good news as did Jesus and Paul, perhaps you can point out some scriptures where either Jesus or Paul preached any of the following:
1. God's Kingdom would be established in the heavens in 1914.$$$
They did not preach about the established kingdom in 1914 because Jesus implied that this message would be preached in the last days as a continuation of the apostolic message. Matthew 24:14. Light had not yet gone forth yet.
$$$2. We must seek out and associate with God's organization in order to be saved.$$$
The first century organization of God was the Christian congregation. Paul did teach that people in his day needed to become Christians to be saved.
$$$3. God will destroy anyone who is not a member of his true organization and absolutely, unquestioningly obedient to it, no matter how corrupt that organization may be.$$$
That is a misrepresentation of what jw teach. You are resorting to nothing-but-ness again.
$$$4. "Wicked persons" are defined as anyone who is not a member of God's true organization.$$$
jw do not believe that.
$$$5. We need to calculate the end of the "Gentile Times" according to a flawed method using non-historical dates in order to understand Bible prophecy.$$$
You may have a point here. But non dares to say that you are not perfect either. What if you were put under a microscope? What cracks and defects might show in your little hide?
$$$I could go on, but these beliefs are central to the teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses, and they are utterly unscriptural. These ideas will be drilled into the head of any prospective convert in great detail, while the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and the forgiveness of sins - the heart of the Christian Good News as preached by Paul - will be mentioned in passing, at best.$$$
Read the publications for yourself. They will show you that what you just said is a buncha skybalon.
$$$
When Paul encouraged his nonChristian contemporaries to repent, did he tell them that the wicked he was condemning was they?
Was he telling them to repent of their good works? Obviously, by telling them to repent, he was bringing their wickedness to their attention! Of course, unlike JW's, he did not attempt to pigeonhole them as "wicked ones" because they did not belong to his organization (funny how he never actually mentioned that organization, huh?).$$$
If Paul was trying to associate new "converts" with the first century congregation then he did think it was necessary to be part of an organization. The early congregation was a united and worldwide brotherhood.
People who were not christians were said to be lost and without God.
$$$Rather, he recognized that they were sinners whom God loved and for whom Christ died, and encouraged them to become reconciled to God through the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Again, a far cry from the work of JW's today.$$$
Not so. jw do the same thing.
$$$
If jw are God's organization, you will not be able to topple them with some puny Dateline show. But even from a sociological and psychological viewpoint, it is very doubtful that dateline will have the effect you want it to. Look at the history of the Catholic church. It has committed atrocious acts for hundreds of years and with what result? It has more zealots today than it ever did. One day the Catholics might fall in this world. But it will not be because of some show like Dateline.
So, it sounds as if you are saying here that, even though the JW's may be a filthy, corrupt false religion like the Catholic Church, a single Dateline show will not have the ability to destroy the organization. Unfortunately, you may be right about that. But Dateline will certainly do some damage and open some eyes. I'd hate to be a JW trying to go from door to door this morning.$$$
jws are not a filthy and corrupt organization. That is not what non said, twister. If one has God's spirit, she can bear whatever adversities come her way. Dateline will not affects jws in the long run. It will not topple the wt.
$$$As far as JW's being God's organization: There is no scriptural evidence that God works through an organization. I suggest you download this article and read it over: http://www.brci.org/Publications/Org96.pdf$$$
Non does not read apostate materials. Thanks.
$$$The word "organization" does not appear in the Bible, and neither does the concept of a monolithic, controlling organization such as the JW's are today.$$$
Apostates make one fatal flaw. They become fundamentalist in their thinking. They think that because the word "organization" does not occur in the bible, then God does not have an organization. As one bible scholar once said, the word "love" does not appear in Hosea. But that book highlights God's love more than any other book in the bible. The word organization does not have to appear in the bible. The concept may and does appear.
ThatSucks

Hey non_trias_theos_ot_dunnscott:
Imagine that I am a catholic, speaking to you now, and realize how little you have said in so many words:
"Hypocrytes make one fatal flaw. They become fundamentalist in their thinking. They think that because the word "trinity" does not occur in the bible, then God does not have a holy trinity. As one bible scholar once said, the word "love" does not appear in Hosea. But that book highlights God's love more than any other book in the bible. The word trinity does not have to appear in the bible. The concept may and does appear."
non_trias_theos

Non will no longer respond to those that call him Dunscot. He will only reply to his name, non.
$$$Imagine that I am a catholic, speaking to you now, and realize how little you have said in so many words:
"Hypocrytes make one fatal flaw. They become fundamentalist in their thinking. They think that because the word "trinity" does not occur in the bible, then God does not have a holy trinity. As one bible scholar once said, the word "love" does not appear in Hosea. But that book highlights God's love more than any other book in the bible. The word trinity does not have to appear in the bible. The concept may and does appear."$$$
Your argument does not apply to non. Non does not use this line of reasoning. God could be triune even though the word does not appear in the bible. The concept might appear. But it does not and so God is not--trias.
DannyBear

Mongo says he don't like non's horses ass.
Mongo says Mongo will knock horse in jaw.
Mongo knows only way to get attention of stupid horse.
Mongo help horse get better.
Mongo
Ps Mongo feel better now.

Dateline and Perspective

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