God's will or free will? (page 2)

thinker

bjc,
First a definition. When I said "free will", I meant the complete freedom to choose. Choices in EVERYTHING, from what you want for dinner tonight to what you want to believe about the meaning of life.
It is these choices, large and small; which determine our futures, both individually and collectively.
For example, I am who I am because of the choices I've made during my adult life and the choices my parents made for me as a child. My parents created me because the choices they made brought about a child (me). Their parents created them with a series of choices, etc..back as far as you want to go. By your reasoning, ALL of these choices were predetermined by Jehovah to bring about a certain timeline.
Another example: One day last year on the way to work, I decided to go by a different route. By doing so I avoided a fatal accident on my regular route. The choice I made may have been the diffence between my being alive today or not. At the time the decision seemed small and insignificant, but in hindsight I wonder if my free will was being "overruled" so I could continue in this life. Did I choose on my own or did God play a part? If He made the decision for me then what happened to my free will?

ianao

Thinker:

You've found the psychological parodox of creation. Good is good, bad is bad, but good is better because good made bad and bad decided to be that way when given the choice, otherwise he would have been good, and there would be no bad to negate the good.

Black and white all over that I would elaborate on, but have too much respect for the posters on this board to do so.

reigninhell

Hello,

One of the first questions I asked the Elders that REALLY irritated them. Excellent! Now, lets see if I can a straight answer from a JW (Does happen sometimes, usually as they hand in their disassociation letter).

Logical propositions:

1. Man has free will.

2. God has free will, and has already determined all events that occur to Man.

Those two statements are mutually exclusive. You CANNOT have both.

As an example of the contradiction thats occurs throughout the Bible, look at Judas.

According to WT literature, it was prophecied that one of the 12 apostles would betray Jesus, get the 30 pieces of silver, etc.

That means that, since Jehovah is "He who causes to become", Jehovah had made sure that one of the selected 12 would betray Jesus. If none of them had, it would have invalidated the entire prophecy.

It could be argued that Judas had the choice, as it could have been another of them. Sorry, but it still means that one of them was damned from word go. Everything in Judas life lead up to his kissing Christ on the cheek. And after all, Jesus selected him. If Jesus knew that Judas would betray him, then Jesus effectively signed his death warrant for him, ie Judas Had No Choice. If Jesus didn't know then Judas heart was pure when he became an Apostle. Who, that is even remotely intelligent, and knew for for a fact that Jesus was the Son of God, would truly be stupid enough to betray him for the price of a night out on the town, without some form of Divine Intervention?

Since it was all predetermined, then Judas was not responsible for his actions, the only one responsible is God. Satan (the WT version anyway...) had nothing to do with it. If Satan did enter Judas' heart, then it was at God's bidding. So why is Judas accursed for something he wasn't responsible for?

You can carry this line of reasoning into any and all Bible prophecies.

Do some research, I actually think it was an obsure notation in the "Insight" book, that had the WT admit to total predeterminism, in contradiction with their own total Free Will policy.

Ahhhh, if only I still had my WT library, all the loopholes, lies, and contradictory statements you ever need to loose faith is right in there....

BJC, if you knew anything about the total interconnectedness of human society, then it becomes apparent that just choosing life or death can have a massive outcome on all humanity. Imagine if say Cain had "choosen life". Or Judah had stayed in Egypt. Or are you saying that some of us have free will, and others don't?

All lecturing, insults, and genuine discussion appreciated.

Reign In Hell

MDS

The God-Given Freewill of Mankind, enables or allows him to display an inherent superiority of the animal kingdom by demonstrating his "ability to reason." -- Acts 17:2, 17; Romans 12:1

When mankind thus, demonstrates, "freewill" in such a manner as to please Our Creator, done to the satisfaction of the Supreme Judge, the maker of man, God presents Him with a "Gift," of appreciation. The "gift" of "Everlasting Life." In this way, Mankind secures his own destiny, determines his own future, his own finale, whether it is good or bad...as Judged by Jehovah, the Supreme Judge of all matters. Mankind, using "FreeWill" and these given circumstances provided by Our Creator, thus makes it possible to establish "Merit" for his actions, in the eyes of God, and PROVIDE HIMESELF (mankind) this unique opportunity to gain this "gift," or PRIZE, a "gift" or prize from God...the GIFT of "Everlasting life," ... an offer made by God to mankind, which has not been given or offered, to the Animal Kingdom.

MDS

...To Gain Life, "Israel," Must Express Faith in the "Word of the Kingdom." -- Matthew 13:19

Edited by - MDS on 12 March 2001 11:41:6

reigninhell

MDS, sorry but that hasn't answered anything.

If humanity has free will, then shouldn't God respect that? I have free will when I'm getting mugged "Hand over the wallet or I'll shoot you!". That ain't considered free will. Thats threats and bullying, a no win situation.

"Let me give you a little inside information about God.
God likes to watch. He's a prankster. Think about it.
He gives man INSTINCTS! He gives you this extraordinary
gift, and then what does He do, I swear for His own amusment,
his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition.
It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch,
but don't taste! Taste, don't swallow. Ahaha! And when you're
jumpin' from one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's
laughin' His sick, f#%^$%' ass off. He's a tight-ass! He's a
sadist! He's an absentee landlord. Worship THAT? NEVER!"

a quote that sums up Jehovahs "Do as I say or I'll kill you for exercising your right to choose" mentality. A shame if you've never listened to the JW's because you were too busy or had a bad impression from all the brainwashing and child abuse stories.

Oh thats right, Jehovah apparently has already decided who he wants, and opens their hearts accordingly, leading them to the "Truth" (Now that term is classic Neurolinguistic Programming if ever I heard it).
Thats what the WT and the Bible has said, time and time again. Again, thats predetermination NOT free will.

And what about the whole prophecy bit? Not to mention the whole cursed unto the seventh generation clause of the Hebrew Scriptures. A real shame if you happen to have a great-great-great-great-grandfather than broke some law. You have already had your fate decided. You may have a little free will, but God will make sure that all you try fails, and everyone hates you. Predetermined, NOT free will.

It still looks like this is the Bible in a few sentances:

"You have little or no free will. I've already decided everything, you're doomed. What little free will you do have is not applicable as I'll kill you if you don't do exactly what I say. And you better hope that I have nothing special in store for you. If you do I'll curse your name forever, just for carrying out my will."

Using one set of scriptures fails when they contradict another set.

Let the reader use discernment.

Reign In Hell

MDS

Hi "ReignInHell"?

Do you see any, any, any, difference in the "personality" of God, and the "personality" of the Devil...at all, your perspective?

Or, ... from your perspective, there is no Devil...which?

MDS

logical

This is what I think to the Judas situation

Jehovah is all-knowing and He knew EXACTLY what would happen. He knew Judas would sell out. Jehovah decided to use this foreknowledge through the prophets to further identify the Messiah. Of course, if Judas did not decide to sell out, then that particular prophecy wouldnt have existed.

Recap, Jehovah knew what Judas would chose to do in advance so He used that action as a "mark" to help identify the Messiah.

Am I right?

MDS

Logical:

You are totally, absolutely, completely, positively......RIGHT!

Keep up the good work...

Take care,

MDS

Remember, as Matthew 13:19-23 shows, we must always keep in mind the 4 (Four) primary responses we always get when we PREACH the "Word of the Kingdom" to Israel. (3 negative and 1 positive response)...

Edited by - MDS on 12 March 2001 21:10:9

ianao

Logical:

Jehovah is all-knowing and He knew EXACTLY what would happen.

So God KNEW that satan would turn evil given the choice, BEFORE he created him?

YIKES!

larc

If we have free will, then it limited. It is limited by our genetics. Our intelligence, physical characteristics, and talents have an upper limit that is set geneticly. Also, some of our illnesses, both physical and mental, are predetermined. We are also limited by the culture we live in. Our language, gestures, mannerisms, and many of our daily habits are determined by our culture. Within these constraints I guess we have free will. As a person, I feel like I have free will. As a scientist, I believe in determinism.

God's will or free will?

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