God's will or free will? (page 6)

JAVA

This thread is an example of what a good discussion board can do. Thinker, thank you for starting such a thought-provoking topic, and thanks to everyone for adding their comments. Topics like this ALWAYS brings intense feelings to the surface because it allows and encourages us to question everything. I can't imagine intelligent parents being upset with children who question; surely a higher power can do no less.

I have nothing to add that hasn't already been posted except to express my personal thanks for ALL willing to go beyond the safe zone, and into the unknown. That's new territory for many of us, and it takes courage. For any who have not read all of these posts from beginning to end, do yourself a favor and enjoy the ride. Bartender, whatever larc is drinking, I'll have two!

--JAVA, counting time at the Coffee Shop

larc

Mommy,

As my handle, larc, indicates, I am generaly light hearted and I enjoy humor immensely, with or without beer. When I get provoked, I tend to got off like a rocket, then calm down quickly. I went into a long rant with two people earlier in my career here, and later regreted it. So now I count 400 before I post a reply. :):):)

Hey JAVA,

Tell the bartender to put those two drinks on my tab. I always pay up at the end of the month, even if I have to skip a house payment to cover it. :):)

larc

THINKER'S WIFE,

Where are you? You asked me to elaborate, and I spent considerable time doing so, and then you didn't give me even so much as a "howdy do".

Actualy, I don't give a hairy rats arsh. I just used my comments to bring this subject back up to the top of the board.

reigninhell

So, logical and MDS are prophets?

ROFL!!!

Nice one!

Look, I can't even think where to begin on what so-called "prophecies" in the Bible were written after the fact. Isiah (the entire book) for one.

As I say, go out and do some research for yourself. If what you say is true, it will stand up. If not, then it won't.

By the way, whats to stop say the Quran from being correct? Islam has just as much proof as the Bible historically.

And faith is a thrashed concept. God lives in my shoe. I offer no proof, you just gotta have FAITH!!

I'm not saying you take up atheism, or lose any sense of spirituality. As a genuine Rationalist, I gotta say there is plenty of evidence for what could be crudely called a "spiritual" element to the universe. It simply doesn't bear any relation to the Biblical God. Taoism doesn't seem too far off the mark to me (and a massive number of scientists too, both reputable and fringe.) People have some sort of "mystical" experience, and off they trot, giving it all sorts of imaginative embellishments, saying "God said: Thou Shalt......".

Just open up your minds, believe nothing, question everything, and get on with living your life without the fear of God destroying you.

Humanity will do that to itself soon enough....

Reign In Hell

James

Hi MDS:

You are completely right! I think that there is a lot of people trying to accuse the Creator of injustice, but they forget the endless love He has showed to humankind until now. He is the Source of Life. Do we thank Him everyday when we get up in the morning, or give Him praise for the wonderful creation around us?

King David said once:" When I look up into the night skies and see the work of your fingers- the moon and the stars you have made- I cannot understand how you can bother with mere puny man (or woman), to pay any attention to him!" Psalms 8:3, 4 (The living Bible Edition)

All the discussion about Judas, Satan and rebelling angels....reminds me of the scripture in Romans chap. 9:11-26, where Paul speaks about Jacob and Esau. It’s true that God loved Jacob BEFORE the twins were born: „For when they had not yet been born nor had practiced anything good or vile, IN ORDER THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD RESPECTING THE CHOOSING MIGHT CONTINUE DEPENDENT, NOT UPON WORKS, BUT UPON THE ONE WHO CALLS, it was said to her (Sarah):’The older will be the slave of the younger."

„What shall we say, then? Is there any injustice with God? Never may that become so! For he says to Moses:"I will have mercy upon whomever I do show mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I do show compassion." So, then it depends not upon the one wishing nor upon the one running, but upon God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: ‘ For this very cause I HAVE LET YOU REMAIN, that in connection with you I may show my power, and that my Name may be declared in all the earth.’

„So then, upon whom he wishes he has mercy, but whom he wishes he lets become obstinate. You will therefore say to me: „Why does he yet find fault? For who has withstood his express will?" O man, WHO THEN, REALLY ARE YOU TO BE ANSWERING BACK TO GOD? Shall the thing molded say to him that molded it, „Why did you make me this way?" What? Does not the potter have authority over the clay to make from the same lump one vessel for an honorable use, another for a dishonorable use? If now, God, although having the will to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, tolerated with much long-suffering vessels of wrath made fit for destruction, in order that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory, namely us, whom he called not only from among the Jews but also from among nations, what of it?"

I really believe that single persons are chosen by His Spirit to approach God and get the knowledge of the truth. And God knows our hearts, what we really are ‘inside’. But He has not predestinated our own outcome. We are still free to decide if we want to live our lives FOR HIM, accepting his authority through His Son Jesus Christ, OR NOT. We have the free choice to live our life as we like, but we cannot expect at the end to receive anything from Him, if we have refused to get to know His will for us. It is so simple.

James

logical

I AM NOT A PROPHET

I HAVE NEVER SAID I WAS A PROPHET!!!

larc

reigninhell,

What I said earlier was that mds considers himself to be an interpreter of prophecy and Logical is one of his followers.

Julie

Hi All,

Interesting topic. On this whole predetermination thing, I wonder. If all was known to God before-hand, and I would assume Jesus was in the know being as he was well-connected, how come Jesus didn't do something to thwart the horrors that would be committed in his name? Why didn't he issue a simple order like "Thou shalt not slaughter each other in my name?" Surely these atrocities were known to God before they happened. Why would he let people do such things? All were pretty sure they had the truth and that they were doing God's will. They had the old testament to look to for examples of Godly warfare--surely the Crusades were meant as a Godly war. Now we look at it as barbarism at its worst and yet it is no worse than what God's people were doing before Jesus came.

I do not understand how an all-loving God could just stand by and watch the horrors that are committed daily and excuse it with "He's letting us use free will". It all seems so cruel to me--not loving at all.

Julie

thinkers wife

Thank you Larc! Just been really busy last few days and hadn't gotten back to read. All of what you said made a truck load of sense as usual.
TW

thinker

It recently occured to me that there is two basic ways people look at the Bible: 1) everyone can read it and get the message (which is what I believe) and 2) "special" interpreters are needed to "decode" the "true" meaning of the literal word of God.
Now, imagine that Jesus is about to come down to earth. God calls Him into His office and says, "Jesus, my son, I have a very important mission for you. You will go to earth and spread my message to ALL of mankind. They must heed this message or else they'll suffer eternal damnation!"
Some would have you believe the conversation continued like this: "Make sure my message is really complicated so only a small handful of humans understand it. Make it ambiguous so the Bible causes mankind to start a multitude of religious factions that argue and kill over their own interpretations."
Personally, I believe it went like this: "Make it plain and simple. I want every man, woman, and child to clearly understand."
In addition, I believe it's entirely possible that God decided to send more than one "messenger" and write more than one book.

MDS,
I hope someday you can look back on this part of your life and have a really good laugh.

thinker

God's will or free will?

Share this