God's will or free will?

by thinker 71 Replies latest watchtower bible

reigninhell

logical (horribly inaccurate name)
It doesn't even occur to you does it?
When EVERY other piece of evidence out there SCREAMS that the Bible is wrong, you STILL stick by it. When ALL the contradictions, inacuracies and outright lies PROVE that the Bible is wrong, STILL you stick by it. Even the utter stupidy of a notion of an All Powerful Deity CARING whether you're male or female, gay or straight, whatever, doesn't make you think "Hey, now that just doesn't make sense!".
I pity you, for that is how I was once.
I could write a book too, offer no proof, have all sorts of rubbish in it. Would you blindly believe in that?
Following a belief out of fear, with NO HARD EVIDENCE that the belief is correct is stupidity.
And guess why I chose this nick? Because I would rather live my life in my own way, and die at armageddon, than submit to the tyranny of a deranged God. Yes, any God that would happily destroy 99.9% of its created children, most of whom need no more than a good spanking, is one sick little Creator. Worship THAT? NEVER!
Fortunatly for me he ain't real, or at best is just another demon.
You know how I arrived at my current world view? Actually doing some research on a question a bible student had asked me (I forget what now). The question necessitated my getting a book on modern physics, as the WT simply had no info about it (the Creation book is a joke...). It all went to the dogs after that. You have no idea the convoluted theories I came up with to try and squeeze all the facts I had learnt, into a JW framework. That's why I say, if you REALLY have the truth, then put it to the test. Think for yourself, go out and learn about everything you can. If at the end of that you can still honestly say that you believe the WT, then good for you. Email me, and explain it.
As the Bible itself says "let the reader use dicernment"
You think Jesus would have sat by and never questioned the Hebrew Law? No, he surpassed it, and gave a new Law. And it was Pharisees with your attitude that tried to stop him.
And a thought for you. A parent has a child. The parent beats the child, works it like a slave, casts petty prejudices upon it and completly dominates it. Is that right? THAT is your God.
And yes I am acting in accordance with my own free will. So are you. But what we are TRYING to explain is that much of the Bible makes no sense unless we humans have NO free will. Propheicies require destiny. If one human has had destiny, then all do. The logic is very, very, very, simple.
Wordly Philosphies eh? Easy said now when it's those same Wordly Philosophies that allow you to use your computer to read this, fly on planes around the world, and all the other marvels/horrors of our time.
Galileo put forth a "Worldly Philosphy". It turned out to be correct, as so many others do. And if the JW's had been around back then, they would have slammed his theory too....
Reign In Hell
reigninhell

logical (horribly inaccurate name)
It doesn't even occur to you does it?
When EVERY other piece of evidence out there SCREAMS that the Bible is wrong, you STILL stick by it. When ALL the contradictions, inacuracies and outright lies PROVE that the Bible is wrong, STILL you stick by it. Even the utter stupidy of a notion of an All Powerful Deity CARING whether you're male or female, gay or straight, whatever, doesn't make you think "Hey, now that just doesn't make sense!".
I pity you, for that is how I was once.
I could write a book too, offer no proof, have all sorts of rubbish in it. Would you blindly believe in that?
Following a belief out of fear, with NO HARD EVIDENCE that the belief is correct is stupidity.
And guess why I chose this nick? Because I would rather live my life in my own way, and die at armageddon, than submit to the tyranny of a deranged God. Yes, any God that would happily destroy 99.9% of its created children, most of whom need no more than a good spanking, is one sick little Creator. Worship THAT? NEVER!
Fortunatly for me he ain't real, or at best is just another demon.
You know how I arrived at my current world view? Actually doing some research on a question a bible student had asked me (I forget what now). The question necessitated my getting a book on modern physics, as the WT simply had no info about it (the Creation book is a joke...). It all went to the dogs after that. You have no idea the convoluted theories I came up with to try and squeeze all the facts I had learnt, into a JW framework. That's why I say, if you REALLY have the truth, then put it to the test. Think for yourself, go out and learn about everything you can. If at the end of that you can still honestly say that you believe the WT, then good for you. Email me, and explain it.
As the Bible itself says "let the reader use dicernment"
You think Jesus would have sat by and never questioned the Hebrew Law? No, he surpassed it, and gave a new Law. And it was Pharisees with your attitude that tried to stop him.
And a thought for you. A parent has a child. The parent beats the child, works it like a slave, casts petty prejudices upon it and completly dominates it. Is that right? THAT is your God.
And yes I am acting in accordance with my own free will. So are you. But what we are TRYING to explain is that much of the Bible makes no sense unless we humans have NO free will. Propheicies require destiny. If one human has had destiny, then all do. The logic is very, very, very, simple.
Wordly Philosphies eh? Easy said now when it's those same Wordly Philosophies that allow you to use your computer to read this, fly on planes around the world, and all the other marvels/horrors of our time.
Galileo put forth a "Worldly Philosphy". It turned out to be correct, as so many others do. And if the JW's had been around back then, they would have slammed his theory too....
Reign In Hell
thinkers wife

Reign,
I like your mind! Even when I was a child, being raised as a JW, Judas and some of the other discrepancies in the Bible bothered me. I must have driven my parents demented with all of my questions. There were just things that couldn't be explained properly. Why create Adam and Eve and the Devil fore-knowing what would happen. Why not just create perfection. None of it really made sense.
Thank God I met Thinker, who helps me to know that I am not insane.
Your reasoning points are excellent.
Not to be rude, but as usual, MDS, answers nothing. Just keeps parroting the same old crap that the Society dishes out as meat in due season.
Larc, would like to hear more about your point. That piqued my interest. And tell Zazz to get herself on here. I want to hear what she thinks about this.
TW
logical

Reign In Hell
It is quite obvious you have not read my posts on this forum, neither those of MDS. I am not a baptised JW, never have been. I have absolutely NO intention of baptising into the WTS. I disagree with the WTS way of lying and false prophecying.
And guess why I chose this nick? Because I would rather live my life in my own way, and die at armageddon, than submit to the tyranny of a deranged God. Yes, any God that would happily destroy 99.9% of its created children, most of whom need no more than a good spanking, is one sick little Creator. Worship THAT? NEVER!
This is one of the things the WTS have totally twisted up and got wrong, I agree, a loving creator would NOT do that, and Jehovah God will NOT do that.
The reality is, that the Judgement the WTS are SOOOO keen to pass on the world and Christendom, will infact come upon THEM!
Go back through to last summer's posts, read up posts (mainly in the Bible Research forum) by TheBitterTruth, OneTrueSource, BJC2012, Jr and MDS, and a few by myself. Then you will get the picture of what is going on.
And all this was foretold thousands of years ago, and you let man-made philosophies destroy your faith in Jehovah? Oh well. Your choice, you chose to apostasise from Jehovah and give up on Him. You exercised your own free will.
You think Jesus would have sat by and never questioned the Hebrew Law? No, he surpassed it, and gave a new Law. And it was Pharisees with your attitude that tried to stop him
Interesting statement. I can assure you the exact opposite is happening. MDS is exposing the rubbish the WTS teach, and they are the ones stopping the R&F from hearing the truth and turning from their badness (Jeramiah 23:22)
Wordly Philosphies eh? Easy said now when it's those same Wordly Philosophies that allow you to use your computer to read this, fly on planes around the world, and all the other marvels/horrors of our time.
Yes I agree... but, material is LOWER than spiritual, you cannot use MATERIAL to disprove SPIRITUAL, and if you do, you are a stupid.
Abraham had faith in Jehovah. His wife was old and barren, yet Jehovah caused her to bear a child in her old age! It doesnt matter what the material laws say or do, Jehovah put them there, He can change them to suit His purposes.
And what was the most important factor?
FAITH!
ianao

mds:
Have this clear in your mind...
If a slave, no matter how much he loves the master, is doing his master's will with the understanding that disobedience will be severely punished, then the slave truly has no free will. He has a will of his own mind you, but it isn't a free will, it's a conditional one. (He either does the master's will, or he is punished for it.)
I will not further re-iterate (sp?) any other thing said to you mds. Clearly you do not see my point, and clearly I do not see yours.
logical:
Now, tell me, what use are WORLDLY philosophies, uninspired man-made writings, compared to DIVINELY INSPIRED Biblical writings?
Logical, I hate to break it to you, but the only difference between other worldy philosophies/writings and the ones that you go by is the fact that you BELIEVE that God divinely inspired the words. Have you ever thought, that if for thousands of years, ever since the first five books of the OT was cannonized, that if people sincerely BELIEVED that what they were reading was the word of God, that TO THOSE PEOPLE, it WOULD be the word of God? No, you've never thought of that. It was handed to YOU *AS* the word of God. You never KNEW until someone TOLD you. The only reason that you believe it's divinely inspired is because someone else told you that it was. You've read the book on that premace (sp?), and now you are THOROUGHLY convinced that it is divinely inspired. If you have children, you will no doubt teach them what you know now. Now go back in time and look at how the word of God could be passed down again and again from generation to generation and remain nearly unchanged because almost everyone who came in contact with it believed what they were told about it's divine inspiration.
You keep telling me that I need FAITH, however I remind YOU that you put your FAITH in these WORDS that have been handed down by many many generations. And the fact of the matter is that many of the NT writings to which you hold so dear contain words/phrases/idioms that contradict your view of the God that you dearly love.
aChristian was an excellent example of that. In the 'Spiritual Israel' thread, jr, mds (and possibly others) kept barraging him with 'prophetic definitions' and he kept coming back with his notions of a 'God of Love', and you all, no matter what you tried, COULD NOT BREAK THROUGH THE BARRIER OF *FAITH* THAT HE HAS in Jesus Christ. His Faith in a loving God could NOT be broken in favor of your 'totalitarian conditioning' notions of God.
aChristian has just as much FAITH in his view of God as you have in yours. FAITH is relative to what you believe. So PLEASE quit telling me to have faith in what you believe. It's not going to happen.
Your mentality, and others with opposing views of the same Biblical God has been the cause of death and suffering in ages past. You take a persecuted religion and put it in power, and it turns from the perscuted to the persecutor.
You, my dear judgemental friend, are a prime example of what I am talking about. I could just IMAGINE someone like you in a position of authority.
Edited by - ianao on 14 March 2001 9:23:15
logical

aChristian has just as much FAITH in his view of God as you have in yours. FAITH is relative to what you believe. So PLEASE quit telling me to have faith in what you believe. It's not going to happen.

Yes, and what a shame all his faith is misplaced. If only aChristian actually had faith in Jehovah and not a man-made triune god, an IDOL.
You know, I really couldnt care less what man comes up with to "disprove" the divinity of the Bible. You have to remember, who is really in control at this point in time, and this being will do ANYTHING possible, anything at all, to drag down Jehovah and His word.
Something MANY of you on this forum, have fallen for.
Tell me, what do you want MDS to say? That you are all right, and what you are doing is fine by Jehovah? Will you be happy then? Hearing what you want to hear?
Guess what?
Thats not going to happen. You are going to hear the truth, according to the Bible, which IS God's Inspired Word, and then you have the free will to accept or reject this. Base it on whatever reasoning you may have, but ultimately you are choosing life or death.
Why are you all so afraid of the truth? Does it sting? Nag? Your conciense gets overactive? Do you think "hmmm, theres something about this message, but I dont want to change my ways, but it wont go away... what shall I do? ... ah, I know, i'll attack the person who is conveying the message, that way, drag the person down the message goes with him"
I hope you all make the sensible decision
ianao

logical:
Tell me, what do you want MDS to say? That you are all right, and what you are doing is fine by Jehovah? Will you be happy then? Hearing what you want to hear?
I don't care about what mds says. And you should take A GOOD LOOK AT YOURSELF, because you are pretty darn happy hearing what YOU want to hear from YOUR 'IDOL'. (And I i'm not talking about God either).
Yes, and what a shame all his faith is misplaced.
And what a shame that you can't handle that someone else doesn't agree with you.
Why are you all so afraid of the truth? Does it sting? Nag? Your conciense gets overactive? Do you think "hmmm, theres something about this message, but I dont want to change my ways, but it wont go away... what shall I do? ... ah, I know, i'll attack the person who is conveying the message, that way, drag the person down the message goes with him"
And unfortunately, AGAIN, you are unable to see what I, and MANY others CAN see. That YOU need to take a darn good look at yourself. But just like the average rank and file JW, you set double standards that you are unable to apply to yourself. You prejudge others by your OWN PERCEIVED VALUES. That YOU have derived from a book. Perhaps I can say the same thing to you:
Perhaps the truth hurts YOU.
Perhaps it nags YOU.
Perhaps YOUR concience get's OVERACTIVE.
Perhaps YOU are thinking: "hmmm, theres something about this message, but I dont want to change my ways, but it wont go away... what shall I do? ... ah, I know, i'll attack the person who is conveying the message, that way, drag the person down the message goes with him".
I pitty you. You haven't learned that your values are derived from what you perceive as reality. Maybe when and *if* you do learn this simple concept, you will be able to utter these words:
"this is my opinion"
And you won't be so judgemental of others. (And yes, unfortunately, judging others by what YOU perceive as God's standards is STILL being JUDGEMENTAL, no matter how you try to rationalize it. God didn't decide to condemn the person you spoke with, YOU DID!)
logical

God's word is more than just an opinion
It is the TRUTH, accept it or not.
ianao

What you percieve as TRUTH is only your opinion.
Except that or not.
"TRUTH is not what all believes, TRUTH is but what you perceive"
Edited by - ianao on 14 March 2001 12:23:45
larc

reign in hell,
Logical suggested that you read mds' posts. Let me save you some time. Logical almost became a witness, but now is a desciple of mds. Mds left the wintnesses in 1991, and considers himself a modern day interpreter of phrophesy. Bjc and jr are two other followeres of his.
TW,
You asked me about my bliefs. I believe in determinism. As a major premis, it has done more to advance human knowledge than any other approach. Can it be proven absolutely? No. Here is a list of things I don't believe in as result of scientific investigations I have read: Esp, telekinesis, astrology, demons, or clairvoancy. On the religious side of I don't believe the following: the FDS, Spiritual Israel, or any fullfillment of Daniel or Revelation in modern times.
Logical,
I don't believe that all of the Bible is inspired. Since you do, explain how creationism can be correct and how the Noah story could be true. It simply couldn't happen. Also, I don't believe that using our intellect to question the internal logic of a belief system is insulting to a Diety as you do. Furthermore, I don't believe that empirical evidence that contradicts a belief system should be ignored either. Logical, one other point. The JWs used to publish a book "What has religion done for mankind?" I have to ask, what has religion done for you? It seems to me that you life is full of misery, based on what you write to us. You are full of hate, for youself and others.
Logical, you will not find salvation through the Bible, mds, or anyone else. Start using your own brain, get a job and make something of yourself. Perhaps, you Diety will look favorably on your efforts to make a contribution in this life time.

God's will or free will?

Share this