God's will or free will?

by thinker 71 Replies latest watchtower bible

1ofMany

Forgive me for not reading all the posts here I'm limited for time.
However, someone may have suggested this already but here's by 2 cents worth.
God is eternal. He operates outside of time. The things that are being spoken of here as being predestined ARE predestined not from the point of view that God MAKES things happen but from the point of view that He KNOWS the outcome from eternity.
We have free will. There is no doubt. God knows what choices we will make therefore any prophesies (I think the example of Judas was given earlier) made in the OT are pieces of knowledge given to prophets by God from eternity.
Does this make any sense to anyone?
reigninhell

Recap, Jehovah knew what Judas would chose to do in advance so He used that action as a "mark" to help identify the Messiah.
If Jehovah knew for a fact that that would occur, then placing Judas in that situation, he set him up. It still isn't even slightly a moral thing to do, and still violated Judas free will. You wouldn't put an alchoholic in charge of a bottle shop now would you? As I said before, it's obviously more than simply knowing that Judas would sell out, there were all sorts of specific prophecied factors, that couldn't have been chance. Jehovah is "He Who Causes To Become" remember? Thats still all a violation of free will.
Lets think about that scripture where Jehovah tells David, that before David was even concieved Jehovah knew all about him. That is a fairly clear indication of Jehovah having predestined yet another event.
So if Jehovah is capable of knowing everything in advance, then how did Satan get a chance to rebel? Why did Jehovah deliberatly create one third of the Angels, and Humanity in full knowledge that they would rebel? An Ego-trip? Boredom? In any case, it still shows that mankind had no free will.
MDS, yes in fact I do view the Biblical Jehovah as a demon. While not a Gnostic myself, do a search for Gnostic Christianity, it explains what I mean. Thats giving some serious benefit of the doubt as to his existence. Or when I'm in a Buddhist/Occultist mood I view them as the same entity. Of course since I don't view God in Christian terms it's a moot point really. The particular philosphy I follow dictates that all Truths are ultimatly false. So I deliberately change my perseptions to gain more understanding of that which can't be understood. Hence, it all depends on my mood.
I really don't see how Christians can fail to comprehend this. You either have free will or you don't. Since Jehovah created Everything, that includes time. Since He created time, he has already decided everything. Since He has already decided everything, Jehovah is the only one who is responsible for the sins of humanity. Logically, Jehovah declaring everthing in creation "good" makes all our sins "good". Therefore why would we be punished for doing exactly what we are created to do?!?
Reign In Hell
mommy

Logically, Jehovah declaring everthing in creation "good" makes all our sins "good". Therefore why would we be punished for doing exactly what we are created to do?!?

Very interesting point. I would like to hear the others thoughts on this.
wendy
bjc2012

Reigninhell,
"Logically, Jehovah declaring everthing in creation "good" makes all our sins "good". Therefore why would we be punished for doing exactly what we are created to do?!?"
Wouldn't it depend on when this statement was made? If it was made before sin was introduced, then it would mean that the standard for what was expected of humans was determined. If it was made after sin was committed, then you have a point.
ianao

bjc2012:
Pardon my interruption, but I think you are missing Rih's point.
You mention sin being "introduced", but you neglected to name the SOURCE.
The fact is, according to the Bible, God made ALL THINGS. This includes Jesus, the angels (including satan). This also includes the tree of 'forbidden fruit' that God placed in the garden of Eden.
Reign's whole point is that according to the Bible, God made everything.
People keep talking about how evil satan is, but they forget that God gave satan the ability to BE evil by giving him this so-called 'free-will'. If God had NOT given satan a choice, he would NOT have had the opportunity to become evil.
(Oh, and please don't lecture me about how good it was that God gave the devil the choice of whether to follow him or not, because all who are not following God are going to be destroyed in the end. Doesn't seem like much of a choice to me.)
People also keep talking about how bad Adam and Eve were for disobeying God, when technically at the time the serpent spoke with them, they did NOT know right from wrong. Then, after disobeying God (a good/evil concept they did NOT know because they had not partook of the fruit), they are punished for doing something that they only understood the repurcussions of AFTER they had disobeyed and partook of the fruit.
Sure God warned them, but what merrit is a warning that "you will surely die" going to have to folks who did NOT know that death was a bad thing?
It seems that God punished all of us humans because we disobeyed him when logically we would NOT have known that it was BAD to disobey him before we had already disobeyed. Hence Reign's earlier reference to a "set up".
Adam and Eve were punished for listening to the serpent when they were not given the ability to discern that it was WRONG to do so.
This is WHY I call this entire topic the psychological paradox of creation.
Edited by - ianao on 13 March 2001 14:29:59
MDS

Hi all:
Everlasting Life, is a "gift" from God. Jehovah does not have to grant it to anyone. Spirit creature nor earthling man.
You cannot not earn it, in His eyes. It is His special Gift, His reward to "obedient" mankind, and "obedient" Spirit Creatures, who also possess "free will." Both possess free will.
Now, if Satan, Adam and Eve, decided ON THEIR OWN, to exercise "free will" that God endowed them with, and go down a road OF THEIR CHOOSING, against the clear RECOMMENDATION of Jehovah, and practice things that God, the Creator, CONSIDERS BAD...then they have lived their lives doing what THEY want to do... They have exercised their own "free will."
And as a fact, how long as Satan been doing what he, SATAN, wanted to do...how long...exercising his "free will."
The angel called Satan, was in the beginning, created good, then, later turned bad ON HIS OWN, ... and yet he lives, doing the things he wants to do... God cannot be faulted for this.
Even if God had exercised "fore-knowledge", a unique ability that He alone possess, then he could do this with complete impunity. Afterall, its not God who is carrying out the bad work, but Satan, or man. The spirit Creature we call Satan, was created "good," not wicked. Satan brought "wickedness" upon himself, "sin," into the world by HIS OWN DOING...thus Sin cannot be charged to God, just as James 1:13 clearly says.
We cannot convict God, Jehovah of Sin...it cannot be done.
Even so, Satan, the Rebel, continues to live...and Jehovah has not stopped him yet.
Adam lived for many years, after sinning...all together, some 930 years. Adam did HIS WILL...not God's. And yet, he lived...Jehovah permitted it.
Just as Jehovah permits a world of wickedness on earth today...Jehovah has permitted it. Jehovah permits mankind to exercise "free will," and practice wickedness, over and over again.
God permits this. He permits mankind to exercise "free will."
And the permission of wickeness on earth today, is truly serving a very wise purpose. It shows that God's ways of doing things, are always, right. Right, in the long run, or short run, either way, Jehovah is right, he is proven right, in the end.
And Satan, is wrong...he proven so, over the course of many years...exercising His, Satan's, Free Will.
Jesus, on the other hand, was created good too, righteous, and has continued on a righteous course. He got his start, even before the angel we call Satan, and is still continuing on a course of righteousness... and Jesus has exercised HIS FREE WILL too.
He gained special "merit" with His God, Father, and Creator. This way he has used his "free will," in a way as to please his Creator, and has accomplished this for himself, yes Jesus did this for himself.
Jesus has been "declared God's Son" ....solely on the basis of how he has USED HIS FREE WILL!!! -- Romans 1:4
And for that, he "inherits" all the blessings promised in the bible to a "righteous" man.
Now, if God wants to EXTEND someone's life, and grant them EVERLASTING LIFE,...for ever, and for ever... because that person voluntarily chooses to FOLLOW the RECOMMENDED COURSE of conduct from Jehovah...and uses his "free will" to Jehovah's satisfaction...then, what of it?
I see no injustice here, no cause for alarm.
Afterall, doesn't Jehovah God, too, have "free will?" Can he not grant "blessings" upon the one, who PLEASES him? Can he not do this, and be considered "righteous" in so doing?
I say yes.
So God, now, exercises HIS FREE WILL and grants "EVERLASTING LIFE," unending life, ETERNAL LIFE, to the one who FOLLOWS INSTRUCTIONS...HIS INSTRUCTIONS...voluntarily, since he has "free will."
Simple.
And for those who exericise "free will" and so do not follow explicit instructions from their Creator...
...well, God, also decides to EXERCISE HIS FREE WILL, too in their case also and thus decides at some appropriate time to HIMSELF, to end the life of EVERYONE, EVERYWHERE, in spirit form or fleshly form, who prove themselves totally, "Disobedient", incorrigible living beings, who have demonstrated, that under no circumstances, yes, as along as they possess FREE WILL, simply WILL NOT FOLLOW THE RECOMMENDED course that Jehovah God has outlined for them.
In other words, the only way Jehovah is going to get them to FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS, is to MAKE THEM ROBOTS!!!!!!!
That's the only way they will obey???
Or, worse, reduce to the state of an animal, and take away any "reasonings" powers they may possess at all. Now, they have "instincts" only, to guide them, and pre-programed instincts at that. To, eat, to sleep, to procreate and so on. They can even store up nuts, like skirrels, for their offspring. Some humans practically live this way even now...as animals. But, no spiritual relationship with the Creator... Yes, they are alive, but they now live as "animals."
... like Jehovah reduced Nebuchadnezzar for 7 years...to eating grass like an animal. Or, possibly some form of lycanthropy (wolfman) or some similar man/animal like mental condition... a state of being an animal. Whatever to God's liking ...
These are the only choices I see on the matter, if someone does not "exercise" free will to God's satisfaction over a period of time.
The only alternative.
This is justice...I have no problem with this situation, and the Godly right of Jehovah, as the Creator of Man and Spirit beings, to TERMINATE the life of such beings, be they spirit beings, or humans....Satan, or Adam... if they do not, freely obey Him.
I do not think, Jehovah God, is going to make "robots," or animal beings out of any of us... who are wicked by free will.
He is going to make probably a more productive use out of us humans, he will send us back to dust, where we can be put to better use...helping to push up daisies, and help make other plant life grow. That way we are again, productive, serving some honorable purpose, being transformed back into dirt...giving the earth back minerals that further nurture the "cycle of life."
That way, Jehovah, WASTES nothing...he makes good use of everything...even the "free will" wicked one.
MDS
...Let us obediently Preach the "Word of the Kingdom," to Israel..."without letup." -- Matt. 13:19; Acts 5:42
Edited by - MDS on 13 March 2001 16:51:48
ianao

Nice post MDS.
However, you are missing the entire point of the discussion.
Fact of the matter is, according to the Bible, if you don't go God's way, then you will be destroyed. We are not talking about a choice between paper or plastic, we are talking about life or death.
Anyone who is a sensible thinker will SEE that their really is no choice if you want to live your life by God's Word.
It's like a witness trying to get by with wilfully taking a blood transfusion and then refusing to willfully disassociate themself. It looks like a choice, smells like a choice, but in the heart of the matter, there is no choice if one wishes to stay in the congregation. By his action, he has shown a decision to a choice that he really did not have in the first place!
It's analogous (sp?) to being a member of a social club. You have to follow the rules to stay in the club, otherwise, you are OUT OF THERE.
Plain and simple.
But the stakes (Biblicly) speaking are MUCH HIGER than social status, it is life or death.
SURE they can use their "free will" to choose the opposing side of the pole (*WINK WINK*), but if they do, then they will be destroyed. So the free will to decide whether or not to stick with God is really mute, because they know the consequences for NOT sticking with him is to die.
If a slave, no matter how much he loves the master, is doing his master's will with the understanding that disobedience will be severely punished, then the slave truly has no free will. He has a will of his own mind you, but it isn't a free will, it's a conditional one. (He either does the master's will, or he is punished for it.)
Edited by - ianao on 13 March 2001 18:59:18
MDS

Ianao:
I'm afraid, you are missing the point I'm making...
The fact that we live in a world that does not ADHERE to the Will of God, is proof, that we all enjoy FREE WILL. It just that simple. Now, if Jehovah, who is Almighty, permits or lets this "condition" continue for ever, would you be happy then. And then, and only then, would you say, "Well God allows sinners to live forever and ever on His earth, sooooo we must have "free will."
It that what it take for you see what God is doing?
We all have free will, by God's permission. We have free will because God allows it. An Almighty Person, allows us to.
An Almighty Person, who COULD DENY us this "choice." ...He could deny us, this luxury!
He could demand COMPLIANCE, TOTAL COMPLIANCE, by everyone, immediately. ...No, free will in this case.
He enforces compliance...forces everyone to do what He wants...he forces.
Now, you say, he does it anyway, because in the end...he destroys the wicked. So, mankind has no choice. This is what you say.
This is wrong. The fact that you are babbling this nonsense right now, and God has not directly STRUCK YOU DOWN, with a bolt of lightning, for your obvious blasphemy, is proof of God-Granted free will, even for the perverse, twisted and sick among us.
But, he doesn't.
Therefore, because of free will, then, you and I are having this ridiculous conversation...why...
...because God allows us to have this conversation.
Jehovah God is ALMIGHTY...could stop it. If He wanted to stop ALL CONVERSATIONS like this one.
And all any one could say, is that, the Almighty One, simply won't allow it.
Then, if that were so, you mighty say to yourself (under your breath) that God, has not truly granted mankind, FREE WILL.
Do you get it now?
MDS
reigninhell

ianao, mommy ty, you got what I was on about. ianoa, nice posts as well!
Unfortunatly, the particular issue we are talking about is simply beyond the comprehension of good JW's. Notice how MDS fails to see that ... oh actually I can't be bothered putting it all again.
The frustrating thing about JW's are, they are taught to attack all the logical weakness in OTHER organisations, but seem absolutly incapable of percieving their OWN weaknesses. MDS, if you can't grasp the simple logic to what we are trying to get at, then I suggest going out, and reading some books on applied logic, philosophy, and theology. Oh and while youre at it why not read some books on astrophysics, quantum mechanics, and chaos theory. You''l probably understand that point a little better, although by then you'll have also realised the rediculousness of the WT doctrine, and the extent that you've been lied to. Oh yeah, an understanding of how the spacetime continuum function might help as well, so go out here and do some real learning.
"He could demand COMPLIANCE, TOTAL COMPLIANCE, by everyone, immediately. ...No, free will in this case."
Isn't that what armagedon is all about? Is the concept of duress simply beyond you? And aren't you listening, we're saying that according to the Bible, God DID intend it to come out like this. That. Is. What. We. Are. Trying. To. Say.
Out of interest MDS what part DO you play in the JW's? You use a very similar argument as an Elder used when I asked this question many years ago.
As all ways,
Reign In Hell.
logical

reigninhell (appropriate name)
if you can't grasp the simple logic to what we are trying to get at, then I suggest going out, and reading some books on applied logic, philosophy, and theology. Oh and while youre at it why not read some books on astrophysics, quantum mechanics, and chaos theory.
Now, tell me, what use are WORLDLY philosophies, uninspired man-made writings, compared to DIVINELY INSPIRED Biblical writings?
YOU ARE INSULTING JEHOVAH! Or dont you care?
Do you realise you are indeed acting in accordance to your own free will in refusing to accept the reality of it all, just like I am using my free will to reply to you. I dont have to do this, I chose to.
God does indeed intend things to turn out the way they will, but - they only need to come about like that because of the creations misuse of the God-given free will.
You dont like MDS's explanation, perhaps because it doesnt drag Jehovah's name down like your own theory does?
ianao:
Fact of the matter is, according to the Bible, if you don't go God's way, then you will be destroyed. We are not talking about a choice between paper or plastic, we are talking about life or death.
Anyone who is a sensible thinker will SEE that their really is no choice if you want to live your life by God's Word.
There IS a choice. Conforming to Jehovah's word. We can choose not to...
Remember this: HE created us. HE can do whatever He likes with us. HE did NOT have to be as patient with us as He is, things could have been SO much different.
It seems to me, that you all dont get (or want to get) what MDS is trying to explain. I think MDS has hit the nail on the head.

God's will or free will?

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