Treating the pioneers "Just So."

by LDH 95 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  amac

  This DB is HILARIOUS! Poor IW simply posts an experience that is contrary to the majority and she is attacked at all sides.

  Larc, I completely disagree with you and fail to understand your fascination with IW expressing a positive opinion. Do you think it better to only focus on the negative experiences so we can stir up some mob thinking? You stated the following:

  We are simply trying to understand why you keep talking about your exception to the rule. WHY?

  Why? Because it is not a "rule", and I think that was the intent of IW's post, though I can't answer for her. Just because a few people on this board have had negative experiences does not make it a rule and it does not make IW's experience an "exception" to the "rule." I don't understand labeling someone as an aggressor simply because they state a difference of opinion or experience.

  And to top this off, I haven't read too many "negative" experiences on here anyway. Most of them are experiences of people who were expecting blessings for pioneering and did not receive any. I was never under the delusion that I was to be blessed as a pioneer. At the time, I simply thought that my situation allowed it and I was simply doing what I was supposed to be doing. Anyone who expected blessings was obviously pioneering for the wrong reasons per the WT and the Bible. It seems to me that if one was expecting blessings then they were attempting to work for God's favor. And I never got the implication from the society that I should expect blessings. Bigboi and Prisca pointed this out in their posts. Again, all the experiences I ever heard or read had to do with dire situations where the blessing came as a form of keeping the person fed or with a roof over their head or allowed them to keep pioneering. The blessings never came as a reward! If anyone disagrees with this, I would like to hear why.

  IW, I enjoyed your post. I, too, had good experiences.

  Edited by - amac on 20 June 2002 12:3:16
• 

  LDH

  people who were expecting blessings for pioneering and did not receive any

  Well GEE WHIZ when you start out regular pioneer at age 16 because of all the "wonderful blessings" you've heard about at every assembly for YEARS and because you have been indoctrinated from youth that PIONEERING is a wonderful way to spend your youth....

  And you hear people blathering over and over about "The blessing of Jehovah, that is what makes one rich." Yeah, you kind of go into it expecting to be deliriously happy. NOT dreading meeting with the field service group every morning because the older regular pioneers will disrespect you openly due to the fact that you are 16.

  UM YEAH you kind of look for the same blessings you've been hearing about over and over.

  Then you realize, well YEAH that's why those super incredible experiences were on the assembly parts....because they almost never happened.

  Lisa
• 

  larc

  amac, My conclusion is that for the majority of the pioneers who have modest circumstances, precious little help is given by the congregation. That was my experience, that was my pioneer partner's experience, that was my sister's experience, and the was the experience of many who have posted here, the majority it appears. Now, if your experience and IW's was more positive, then I am happy for you. If several more posters share positve experiences, then I will no longer consider your situation to be an exception to the rule. Until then, I will.
• 

  SYN

  Not wanting to stick my nose into this flame war (well, if it isn't a flame war already, it's gonna be one SOON!), just wanted to add that most of the COs and DOs etc. that I knew weren't exactly living it up when they visited our KH. They would in fact usually live in caravans which they would park at a Brother's house for their stay.

  However, it would usually come down to favouritism and the whole clique mentality was usually responsible for the treatment of poorer people in our KH. This was pretty clear - my family hardly ever went to any "get-togethers" or anything like that...because we weren't in the right cliques. There were very few Pioneers in my KH (maybe they are smart Dubs?), so I couldn't really comment on the sort of thing Lisa was talking about.

  Perhaps the main problem is that a very large number of people in the BOrganization are giving up such a huge fraction of their lives to "serve God" (an invisible Entity) and spread the Good News (the only News that gets rewritten on a regular basis) and sell books (which they buy from the Society) and magazines to people, and in so doing try to get more people to do what they are doing. It's ludicrously silly, if you ask me, to do all of that for someone who it can be proven absolutely conclusively does not exist today. Have you ever seen a photograph of God? And don't give me that "God is everywhere" stuff, come one! If He in his Greatness just by dint of showing up for a couple of hours at the Vatican could PROVE to me that he existed, I'd be all-ears.

  Sadly, this has not been the case. That is the main reason I am an athiest. As Farkel noted, the "Invisible Reign of Christ" is still continuing, the end is coming "Real Soon Now" (hell, the Tower doesn't even pin it down to a date anymore, that's how inconclusive they are about it), and the Governing Body vote on critical, life-changing decisions for 6 million people after angels basically whisper into their ears. How can any rational human being possibly support such an Organization?

  As a final note, all these faithful pioneer types who work their entire lives in "God"s service, do you know what happens to them? They live from hand-to-mouth after they're unable to work and Pioneer at the end of their lives, because they have NO PENSION PLANS. I have seen this with my own eyes. Is that righteous? I actually respected these elderly people when I was still a Dub, purely because they were so wise and benevolent towards me (unlike some), so I felt really bad for their sake. It is terribly wrong that a book-selling Company (and I challenge you to show me that it is anything else, Dub lurkers) is doing this to people, not to mention the people DYING FOR IT over the murky Blood Policy, the Silent Lambs, and the utter chauvinism of it.

  Now, where did I put my sharp stick?
• 

  MissyMoesGhost

  SYN -

  That is the main reason I am an athiest.

  Hmmmmmmmmm......
• 

  IslandWoman

  Mrs. R,

  Thank you for presenting both sides of the coin. Ironically that was my point also. I was not refuting the experiences of others.

  Larc,

  Nonetheless, you should not deny the testamoney of those who were not helped. I just don't understand why this is an issue with you

  I feel somewhat silly responding to this. Let me repeat what I have already stated, I am in no way trying to refute the statements of others who claim mistreatment or neglect! Sigh..... I am only relating what in general were my experiences and that of my husband's!

  How many times do I have to say that I am relating MY experiences and while doing so I do not in any way mean to say that what others have said is not true!

  I am neither a P ollyanna nor a novice, I know full well the problems and tortures that people can be put through in the congregation. I have seen and experienced my full share of the bad that can be found there, I have also experienced the other side, the good and kind people who truly love God and their brother.

  Some posters on JWD bristle at hearing anything that does not validate their opinion of JWs . This is OK, matters not in the real world, but it would be nice if as xJWs we were willing to see or at least admit the possible existence of another side of the coin in the JW world. Those who do are better off than those who do not, IMO.

  Thanks for relating your experiences.

  Lisa,

  She claims to want to present "the other side" of issues raised here -- but I bet you anything if someone started a thread about the GOOD memories they have, IW wouldn't be in there saying, "Now hold on just a second. My congregation SUCKED."

  You are confusing threads with boards. Expressing "the other side" here is important because for the most part this is an anti-JW board and it is healthy to have a balance presented. That's why boards like Pure Language are so distorted, no one there is allowed to post a contrary opinion. Free speech is the freedom to disagree, certainly agreement requires no protection but the right to disagree does. Thanks to Simon this board provides that very thing.

  Or do you think Simon should provide an "only post on my thread if you agree" icon?

  In the future I will refrain from posting anything that smacks of any support whatsoever for any man, woman or child in the horrible Org. Those awful, stupid people who are not as bright as the rest us and therefore remain in the filthy mire of their filthy religion.

  God help us.

  IW
• 

  SYN

  Moe, I'll clarify my statement for you, LOL, that post was typed in hurriedly, my dinner was getting cold!

  By athiest, I really meant not believing in the classical (i.e. Christian) God concept. But, I'm open to suggestion!

  Edited to clarify even more (hell, I'm starting to sound like the GB here!):

  I do believe there are spiritual things underlying the greater reality we perceive that we don't know about. But the God portrayed in the Bible is a very cruel, rather contradictory God of fear.

  Edited by - SYN on 20 June 2002 15:34:35
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  MrMoe

  SYN -

  I do believe there are spiritual things underlying the greater reality we perceive that we don't know about. But the God portrayed in the Bible is a very cruel, rather contradictory God of fear.

  AGREED!!!

  Moe
• 

  amac

  LDH -

  Well GEE WHIZ when you start out regular pioneer at age 16 because of all the "wonderful blessings" you've heard about at every assembly for YEARS and because you have been indoctrinated from youth that PIONEERING is a wonderful way to spend your youth....

  So I guess it all comes down to how you and I viewed pioneering from our own perspective, rather than the way we were treated by the congregation. We were both treated similar (except I wasn't given any pantyhose), yet you felt a negative experience and I felt a positive experience (at the time.) I know you feel your expectations were built up by experiences at assemblies, in the WT, from the friends, etc, but I heard the same experiences (not exactly but I'm sure very similar) and my expectations for pioneering were completely different. So I guess it comes down to personal interpretation and understanding rather than whether or not we were treated "just so." That's my take.

  Larc -

  amac, My conclusion...That was my experience...the experience of many who have posted here...If several more posters share positve experiences, then I will no longer consider your situation to be an exception to the rule. Until then, I will.

  I am surprised that you would take your personal experience and the experience of those around you and consider that a general rule. I once knew a man who admitted to being a racist. When I asked him why, he said because every single experience he had with anyone from that race was a negative experience, and the same went for his family and friends. I felt very sorry for him that he was not able to see beyond that. I am IN NO WAY IMPLYING you are equal to a racist, but it seems like a similar way of thinking that creates a similar bias.

  I am under no illusion that all pioneers are blessed, happy and treated well. I am also under no illusion that they are all mistreated by their congregations. I think, in many cases, an individual experience in pioneering is completely dependent on the expectations of the person and their motives, rather than how the congregation treats them.
• 

  Pathofthorns

  I pioneered and there were times I wished there was more support and then there were times when people expressed gratitude and were kind and sometimes these are the times that are often more easily forgotten.

  I would like to think idealy that if one pioneered for the right reasons it would not matter what "blessings" in a material way were offered as "gratitude". I do think most of us like to be appreciated and it was easy to feel "down" if you felt your efforts were not really appreciated in the congregation because the public certainly didn't appreciate them.

  All in all, for the amount of time the Society promotes pioneering and other full time service, it seems they tend to abandon you once you sign up for it and next to no one is prepared for the harsh long-term realities of it.

  It also has to be admitted that many pioneers (and bethelites, COs etc) can be rather self-righteous and might do things out of a wrong motive or are lazy or whatever, and this gives many of the R&F publishers a bad impression.

  Much depends on from what perspective you are viewing the situation from, what motivated you to be a pioneer and what the local perception of pioneers was. I don't think the feelings expressed are "right or wrong" but just human nature playing out in the congregations. The Society plays up how much better and how different we all were as JWs, but the reality is we were all human like everyone else.

  Path