Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'

by Jr 117 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Jr
    Jr

    James,

    quote:
    This all, I think, shows clearly, that even though we realize how far from the scriptural teachings many of the organization’s positions are, and even though we have the feeling that Jehovah must do something to correct the situation (only because of their bearing His Name), there is no reason to believe that the Almighty God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, has any greater concern for the WT, then he has for any other of the world’s religions, which claim to speak in ‘His Name’. It is the same situation as with the nation of natural Israel. God did not „straighten out" that nation, nor did His Son do so. The desire on their part (particularly that of the national leadership) for the CHANGE was absent. The same reality we will find in WT leadership.



    Do you think Jehovah would have a people in the last days that he would refer to as "Israel"? The scriptures indicate he would. Would you disagree with this?

  • larc
    larc

    Hey Jr,

    There is one problem. These are not the last days.

  • logical
    logical

    ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!

    ROFL!!!!

    larc, you really do crack me up

  • James
    James

    The founder and first editor of the WT magazine, C.T. Russel, was not unaware of the history of deviation of the early christian congregation from an original simple brotherhood into an institutionalized religion with a centralized structure. Already at his beginning the president stressed the need of modern day christians not to follow the existing religious organizations, which had ist distinctive set of teachings, that all must adopt to be recognized members.
    These points were in part quoted in the WT magazine of March 1, 1979:" (quoting from the WT magazine of 1884) New readers in all parts of the country are constantly inquiring: By what names do you call yourselves?".. and quoting from the WT of February 1884:"We belong to no earthly organization;...All the saints now living or have lived during this age belonged to our church organization: such are all ONR CHURCH, and there is no other recognized by the Lord. Hence any earthly organization which in the least interferes with this union of saints is contrary to the teachings of Scripture and opposed to the Lord’s will - ‘that they may be one’. (John 17:11)"
    What the writer of the WT magazine of March 1, 1979, forgot (?) to quote, were the other points of the 1884 article:" By what name may this Church be called? We answer, By the name of ist founder and instituter - Christ -.....And so, by whatsoever names men may call us, it matters not to us;..we call ourselves simply Christians and we raise no fence to separate from us any who believe in the foundation Stone of our building [Christ]..".
    This attitude continued for decades later, as showed in the WT September 15, 1895:
    „Beware of organization: It is wholly unnecessary..Do not seek to bind others consciences and do not permit others to bind yours." Russel and his early associates were actually anti-earthly organization! Most of modern day JW don’t know at all these things and they aren’t encouraged to read his writings

    Unfortunately years later was the same man led to believe that he was the sole channel of God to
    give them ‘food for the proper time’.But after his death, starting from the second president of the WT, Rutherford, the efforts and goals were no more the simply provide and publishing of the ‘message’. The Society received the authority of international supervision over the ‘congregations’. These ‘Bible Students’ had to be unified in a group so as to become one people; Yes [UNITY AT ALL COSTS]. (This expression was made by the former legal counsel of the Society, Hayden C. Covington in a court trial held in Scotland, back in 1954, known as ‘the Walsh case’)

    One of the beliefs that shocked me was the ‘new understanding’ in 1995 of Jesus’ parable of the Sheep and the Goats (Matthew 25:31-46. I still remember as for years, since 1958, we studied with people the book „From Paradise lost to Paradise regained" We imagined ourselves engaged in a worldwide „separating work" based on the understanding of the WT. We were told that „after Jesus became King in heaven 1914, HE would put apart sheep from goats. And the King rests his decision on how the people treat his spiritual ‘brothers’ and how they accept the good news of the Kingdom that his spiritual brothers preach". (Page 200) Now, since 1995, we are told that this separating work has not begun as yet! The WT October 1995, page 22, says:" In other words the parable points to the FUTURE, when the Son of Man will come in his glory. He will sit down to judge people then living. His judgement will be based on what they have manifested themselves to be. At that time ‘the distinction between a righteous one and a wicked one will have been clearly established"...

    We have been preaching all the years along to the people, that they had NOW to make a decision, because we are living in the last days of the ‘Time of the End’, accepting God’s only organization on earth and get baptized, otherwise they would belong to the goats and be destructed at Harmaggedon! And now we hear the WT has ‘adjusted’ his understanding of this parable, as well as the generation of 1914. I ask 'what will be the next 'adjustement'???

    I really see in this kind of mindset that has dominated and is still dominating the WT as :’ we haven’t been right, but we’ve never been wrong’ the evidence of not qualifying to be the ‘Israel of God’ or ‘the chosen people’. In my last response I said that God can have everywhere in the world people who believe in His Son Jesus Christ and are living according to the Truth of His Word.

    In the book „Paul’s idea of Community", page 48, is written about the first christians:"These scattered Christians group did nor express their unity by fashioning a corporate organization, but rather through a network of personal contacts between people who regarded themselves as members of the same christian family."

    As in the first century, when the Jewish people did not accept the Son of God, so it will surely be in modern day. They had found a sense of security in their religious guides and buildings, a sense of righteousness these had brought them. But they experienced an abrupt and painful awakening! I believe that we can avoid this experience in our lives, we should do like the apostles answering to the religious governing body of that time, and said:"OBEDIENCE TO GOD COMES BEFORE OBEDIENCE TO MEN." Acts 5:27-29

    James

  • MDS
    MDS

    Hi James:

    You've made an excellent point. I think the info you posted would be good for someone else (to whom I think is very sincere) to see on the main forum. I would like to "cut and paste" a sample of what you wrote over there, to make a point. The thread is called, "is there any good left in the Watchtower Society" posted by "Jst2laws."

    But getting back to this subject, perhaps, we're really beginning to see, the bible, and its parables, teachings, are not something that man, using human "intelligence," can explain.

    To the Watchtower Society, its a "guessing game." The separation of the "sheep and the goats," is simply a guessing game to them. They do not have any answers no more than any one else walking the earth.

    So, is it "human reasoning," human intelligence that reveals it...has anyone explained the Bible, satisfactorily, comparable to the days of Jesus and the first century christians, clearly people of Godly inspiration...since then, has anyone explained, just using their own minds and thoughts, and without Divine inspiration?

    Has it been done...can it be done, without divine intervention? Can anyone explain it on their own, or do we need some Divine help?

    MDS

    Edited by - MDS on 25 March 2001 13:13:31

  • Jr
    Jr

    Hi James,

    quote:
    perhaps, we're really beginning to see, the bible, and its parables, teachings, are not something that man, using human "intelligence," can explain.

    To the Watchtower Society, its a "guessing game." The separation of the "sheep and the goats," is simply a guessing game to them. They do not have any answers no more than any one else walking the earth.

    So, is it "human reasoning," human intelligence that reveals it...has anyone explained the Bible, satisfactorily, comparable to the days of Jesus and the first century christians, clearly people of Godly inspiration...since then, has anyone explained, just using their own minds and thoughts, and without Divine inspiration?

    Has it been done...can it be done, without divine intervention? Can anyone explain it on their own, or do we need some Divine help?

    MDS


    I thought we were discussing the scriptures. As MDS mentions above,To the Watchtower Society, its a "guessing game." The separation of the "sheep and the goats," is simply a guessing game to them. They do not have any answers no more than any one else walking the earth.

    Based on scripture, do you think Jehovah would have a people in the last days that he would refer to as "Israel"? The scriptures indicate he would. Would you disagree with this?

    JR

  • larc
    larc

    Jr,

    These are not the last days, and therefore Jehovah has nothing to say about it.

  • Emiliano
    Emiliano

    Spiritual Israel are any and all who belive in Christ, anytime anywhere!
    Today can be anyone's last day! Do you bend your knee to the one who has been bestowed the highest name of all?

  • larc
    larc

    Emeliano,

    If you want to call them spiritual Israel, you can if you want to, but there is no proof that they should be called that.

    Do I bend my knees to God? No, I stand straight with my best posture and salute him with respect. My God does not expect people to grovel beore him in fear.

  • Emiliano

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