A correction on my part:
After a little research, I must correct a statement made in agreement with Emilliano. Emilliano said Jehovah made a unilateral covenant with Abraham, which is in agreement with the WT. I agreed. But, I must disagree. Jehovah is a God of high standards. He always requires something of his servants. No human receives any blessing from Jehovah without first a great demonstration of some sort. In Abraham’s case, Jehovah required a large act of faith before he made this covenant with him. And I quote, “ By myself I do swear, ‘is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘that by reason of the fact that you have done this thing and you have not withheld your son, your only one, I shall surely bless you and I shall surely multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand that are on the seashore; and your seed will take possession of the gate of his enemies. And by means of you seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice.” So quite a bit was required on Abraham’s part to receive this. To say it was unilateral, without conditions, is incorrect. Even though there was nothing else on Abraham’s part to keep the covenant in force, it cannot be considered unilateral. Jehovah new Abraham would remain faithful no matter what after this. Jehovah recognized his enduring faith and set it up as imitation for us.
JR
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr 117 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Jr
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logical
Emiliano:
I have been following this discussion, and I am pretty convinced you have been corrected. Why cant you just accept these corrections and move on from there? I can find nothing wrong with MDS, Jr and BJC2012's posts. -
Emiliano
JR
I guess that to you Ezeq. 36 and Rom. 11 are not scriptures!
The words there were not put in there by me.
If you want some deep hidden meaning that some exclusive group may have and no one else, return to the watchtower or some other cult that may claim they have exclusive understanding of Gods word.
The two leaders in Heaven's Gate had exclusive understanding that they were the two witnesses in the book of Revelation.
You had to be in "their group to see the deeper" things of God.
I am sorry that the Bible's face value does not satisfy your elitist need for exclusivity!
The Bible was made available to all the world for a reason. The Catholic chrurch lost exclusive rights to private interpretation many centuries ago.
James, I dont have a problem with your input. It is what I've been saying, that once someone believes they become of God.
When natural israel's heart is changed by Gods spirit being put in them as stated in Ezeq.36:26 they TOO will be of God "heirs to the promise" Rom.8:14-17 circumcised of the heart! It will be the changed heart, no longer their Jewish blood that will truly make them of the Israel of God. That, is attributed to their faith in Christ, your quote from Galatians explains this beautifuly!
I am not saying that they will be any more or less special or exalted!
All I'm saying is that their being broken of is only temporary.
And being Jewish doesnt exculde them from recieving the undeservekindness of God than none will ever deserve. Jr,MDS,BJC2012 when will you desreve it?
By Gods standard we are all, (Gentile or Jewish) filth!
GOD WILL, save us even though we may think that there is something we can Do to attain it on our own efforts or merits.
Which leads back to the supposed "Jr correction"
JEHOVAHS PROMISE TO ABRAHAM IS A UNILATERAL PROMISE
Jr, the only reason you agree or disagree with me is because you resarch what the watchtower has to say.
The Bible disagrees with what the Watchower says in reference to the high standards one must have to keep.
God made a promise to Abraham there was nothing Abraham could or couldnt do about it to deserve it it was only based on the faith that God saw in his heart!
Even the father of faith Abraham wanted to do things his way.
That is why he had a child with the Slave woman (it represented the old covenant the fiutility of man trying to do it)
This action was not showing too much faith, he did not wait on Jehovah to do it His way. He decided to do it on his own, not waiting on Jehovah he had a seed with Hagar, Ishmael.
But Jehovah would not get the credit this way!
This temporary lack of faith did not stop or change Jehovahs WILL to carry out his unilateral promise to Abraham.Nothing but faith was "required of Abraham to recieve Isaac"!
Jehovah said, I WLL and HE WILL. So What did Jehovah do ? HE DID!
Even Though Sarah was very old and it seemed impossible, and on top of that Abrahm screwed up having a child with a slave woman.
God kept his PROMISE ! Isaac. What action did Abraham do or not do to have Keep his promise? It was done AS GOD PROMISED, in spite of Abrahms own faith lacking, misguided efforts! It is Gods work not man's) Man misses the mark! The target was Sarah but he Aimed for the lowly slave. Faith in God and waiting on His Ability to do the work for us allows for the Holy spirit to work inside of our dead body!
Sarahs womb was dead. But it was Gods work that gave it life! That's the work of God, LIFE, God gives us that gift! Not man's efforts!
Waiting on God to do HIS work in our lives allows us to be led by HIM. It is only this way that we will produce great fruits of faith
such as the offering of Isaac in sacrifice to Jehovah.
Abraham by now knew to wait to see the work of God. Salvation is done by the Hand of God not man's hand. Who stopped Abraham ? It was God!
Salvation is what God does through the faith man has in HIM.
" For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are all HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, wich God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10
This is prefigured in Abraham's life.
His works, (Ishmael) were nothing to boast about when he did not have faith.When Abraham through faith waited on Jehovah, Jehovah's works had been prepared for Abraham and God himself would walk him through them.
Jehovah's High standards are only the works that HE does. The only thing we need to do is to have faith that he WILL do them and allow him to do His good works in our lives.The holy spirit will lead us through that walk of faith and then we will see the WORK OF GOD that He has prepared beforehand.
That is our struggle, to continue on believing that GOD WILL DO what HE SAID HE WILL DO.
That is The Abraham faith. He is the father of Faith not because he always believed. But because he shows what happens when you dont believe and How God Works in us When you do Belive.
Jr, MDS,BJC2012, "logical"?,
I know you dont believe in God's word at its face value.
Abraham too thought that God must have meant something other than what he said. It couldnt be at "face value",its some obscure deep meaning perhaps, he probably meant it should be Haggar?
So let it be a lesson dont put words in Gods mouth!
That is a lack of faith!
SALVATION GOD WILL DO IT THAT'S "HIS WORK" he is better at it than you or I,SO get out of the way, relax and BELIEVE, God takes over from there. Let GOD TAKE OVER . HE GETS ALL THE GLORY
The glory of belonging to some "exclusive group of special deep understanding" that leads to some short lived fleshly result like Abraham's Ishmael is not my Idea of trusting in God at the face value of what he says!
I encourage you all to take God seriously and to accept his word at face value. God means what he says and says what he means.
I know, I know. "But that takes faith"! And it can at times be scary to not be the ones in control. We all struggle with that!
God is in control no one cant take that away from Him.
We just have to live our lives as if we really "BELIEVE" that!
And that is what it is all about
The greatest Gift of All is God's
Love.
We have access through Faith.
I know it can be hard to stay on that course of belief , but it is a struggle worth fighting to keep!
I Pray we all keep trusting and believing in God and His Work of Salvation by His own Hand! That we all may one day say like Paul:
"I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith." 2Tim.4:7
Doing all this in Love for you all, I would like in conclusion quote the words of Paul in Ephesians 6:23,24
Peace be to the bretheren, and love with faith,from God the father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ with a love incorruptible.
with Love; David, alias "Emiliano" -
Jr
Emiliano,
you said,quote:
Doing all this in Love for you all, I would like in conclusion quote the words of Paul in Ephesians 6:23,24
Peace be to the bretheren, and love with faith,from God the father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ with a love incorruptible.
I do appreciate all your efforts and having this indebt discussion. I've learned a lot. And I too wish peace to the bretheren and to you. We'll all need it. Thanks.
JR -
James
Hi Jr
Thanks for your Post, I did really appreciate it.
The Scripture you quoted of Acts 15:14-17, was the apostel James speaking to the assembled apostels and older men of Jerusalem, that what happened with the conversion of people from the nations was fulfilling God's prophecies from old.
But I think that in all that you have missed the main point:
When the Bible speaks of God's Name Jehovah or Yahweh we are enclined to limit the expression "Name" in our thinking to a word or phrase that distinguishes one person from another. Yet "name" can apply in a number of other ways, more it can have a far broader, more vital sense than is commonly assigned to it. It can refer to the reputation or personal record, to the authority by which something is done. - See under "Jehovah" in Aid to Bible understanding, Page 1202 -
It is not the mere use of God's Name that makes someone or organisation a servant or 'witness' of this Person. If they don't genuinely reflect, in attitude, conduct and practice, what the Person himself is like - His qualities, ways and standards - they have not truly come to "know His Name" in the scriptural sense.
God's taking out a people for His Name, as James said was prophesied, has thus far greater depth of meaning than merely the application of a nominative word and our demontrating ourselves to be among those sanctifying and proclaiming God's Name calls for far more from us than simply repetitive use of Yahweh or Jehovah (for instance, adding the Name in the NT, where there is no sound basis for doing so).
In our family relationship we don't normally refer to or address our father as "John" or "William" or whatever his name may be. IF WE DO SO, we wouldn't give any indication of our relationship. We address him as FATHER or the more intimate "papa" or "Dad". Those outside that relationship could not use such term! They must restrict themselves to the use of a more FORMAL address involving that particular given name.
That is why, when we become children of God through Jesus Christ, as Paul says in Galatians 4:6:" Now because you are sons, Gos has sent forth the spirit of His Son into our Hearts and it cries out: ABBA (aramaic for "papa") Father", we will not approch to Him calling by His personal Name.
This fact undoubtedly plays a major part in explaining why the undeniable CHANGE came, with the pre-christian emphasis on the Name Jehovah, passing to the christian emphasis on the "heavenly Father", for it is not only in prayer that Jesus made use of this intimate expression. He almost never referred to His Father as Jehovah, rather in the last night with his disciples used more than 50 times the expression "the Father". When he left the disciples after his resurrection to go to His Father in heaven, He said:" But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit arrives upon you and You will be MY WITNESSES both in Jerusalem and all Judea and Samaria and to the most distant part of the earth..".
That is why I believe, that according to the Christian Teachings, it is only by coming into a intimate relationship with the Father which the Son has opened to us ("I am the way...no one comes to the Father except through me..)that we can truly say that we know God's Name in a full and genuine sense.
About the other sheep, I am of the same opinion as you. There are still many, many sheep of Jesus Christ, which are to be reached with His Message of salvation, expecially those which are of broken hearts and feel lost in this world.
James -
larc
James,
I must applaude you. Your analysis and writings are very clear and logical. I think you have explained very well how we should address "our Father." I think Jesus made this very clear in the Lord's prayer. (I can't remember if you mentioned that or not.) -
Emiliano
Hi, James I think your post is very accurate on how to address God and the significance of bearing his name. The name is all of what God stands for. It is not any virtue to appropriate the Name Jehovah to one's group and then say just because the name Jehovah is in the name of our group we have a relationship with him.
Thanks for the post.
Emiliano -
larc
James and Emilano,
I have a question. If it was so important to prclaim God's name, why is it used only four times in the Old Testament, and not at all in the New Testament? Also, I understand that among the Jews the name was so sacred that it was not to be used in conversation. This does not sound like a situation where the name should be proclaimed. Your thoughts on this subject would be appreciated. -
Jr
Hi James,
Thanks for your response. It was said very eloquently . No, it is not merely using his name that shows one as knowing Jehovah . Knowing Jehovah involves much more than being associated with the name. You are correct. The natural Jews carried God’s name upon themselves. But, they did not know Jehovah. Jesus had to teach them who Jehovah was. How? The law was designed to be a tutor of things to come, to lead them to the Christ. Jesus taught them who Jehovah was by reflecting the spirit of the law. In other words, he had to teach them how to reflect Jehovah’s personality. We were all made in God’s image, so he needed to teach them to reflect that personality. His goal was this: “And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know Jehovah! For they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,” is the utterance of Jehovah” - Jeremiah 31:34. So, knowing Jehovah was to reflect his personality. The nation of Israel did not do this.
But, there is a difference in carrying his name and knowing Jehovah. The fact that the Israelites didn’t know Jehovah did not mean they didn’t have his name upon them. They did. As Ezekiel 36:20 says , “ So they came in to the nations where they came in, and people proceeded to profane my holy name in saying with reference to them, ‘These are the people of Jehovah, and from his land they have gone out.” It was the placing of this particular Name upon the Jewish nation that brought special “blessings” upon them. In fact, it was the placing of His Name upon 'ancient Israel', in itself, that made them a special people for His possession. Numbers 6:27 says, “And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.” The placing of God’s Personal Name upon the Jewish nation proved to be the single most outstanding characteristic that identified them as “His people,” “His inheritance”, - it identified them as Israel. Placing this name upon them made them his people . So, one can carry this name without reflecting the fine qualities you mentioned above.
Bringing this home: Even though this “spiritual nation”, JW’s, has failed to represent Jehovah honorably, they carry his name upon themselves nonetheless. They too fail in knowing Jehovah. They too have to be taught to know Jehovah. This will be done. That’s why Jeremiah 31:34 says, “And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know Jehovah! For they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,” is the utterance of Jehovah.” But for now discipline is in store for God’s named people. Micah 4:6,7 says, “In that day,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “ I will gather her that was limping; and her that was dispersed I will collect together, even her whom I have treated badly , And I shall certainly make her that was limping a remnant, and her that was removed far off a mighty nation; and Jehovah will actually rule as king over them in Mount Zion, from now on and into time indefinite,” Yes, he will treat her very badly. But, it is for her good. As Hebrews 12:6 says, “ for whom Jehovah loves he disciplines; in fact, he scourges every one whom he receives as a son.”
The intimacy reflected in the word "father" is very intimate and appropriate as you mentioned. The name "Jehovah" is of paramount importance though. His people will be identified by this name and the nations have to know this. They, "will have to know that I am Jehovah" the scripture says.-Ezekiel 36:23 Psalms 83:18, "That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the most high over all the earth." His people will be instrumental in carrying this out. So, carrying this name brings a blessing or curse depending on the honor or dishonor brought on it.
JR -
Emiliano
larc,
Anyone who is a true christian will bear the fruits of the Holy Spirit. This will Identify you among people as being a child of God, The I AM, YHWH. If you dont accept or believe in Jesus, God will not put His name on you. I doesn't matter if you use his name in the title of your group or not.
If you accept Christ you are led by the Spirit. The Spirit is our Seal.
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:14
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the Gospel (see 1Cor. 15:1-4: Gospel is identified)of your salvation-having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.
Who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possesion, to the praise of His Glory. Ephe.1:13,14
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Ephe. 4:30
You are right, the Name YHWH doesnt seem to be something that was used too often, especially in the New Testament.
What the Christians did, was to preach Christ. Those were the instructions left by Jesus to his followers. Jesus said in Acts 1:8
"and you shall be My Witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."