Emiliano,
Jesus gave an illustration that depicts the situation perfectly. He speaking of Jehovah’s vineyard, Luke 20:9-16,
“ Then he started to tell the people this illustration: “A man planted a vineyard and let it out to cultivators, and he traveled abroad for considerable time. But in due season he sent out a slave to the cultivators, that they might give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. The cultivators, however, sent him away empty, after beating him up. But he repeated and sent them a different slave. That one also they beat up and dishonored and sent away empty. Yet again he sent a third; this one also they wounded and threw out. At this the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my son the beloved. Likely they will respect this one. ‘ When the cultivators caught sight of him they went reasoning with one another, saying, ‘This is the heir; let us kill him, that the inheritance may become ours’. With that they threw him outside the vineyard and killed him. What, therefore, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and destroy these cultivators and will give the vineyard to others.”
Talking of the Pharisees, Jesus went on, “On hearing they said: “Never may that happen!” But he looked upon them and said : “What, then, does this that is written mean, ‘The stone which the builder rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone’? Everyone falling upon the stone will be shattered. As for anyone upon whom it falls, it will pulverize him.”
Jehovah had every intention of Destroying and replacing this people. That is why Jesus said, “This is why I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.” (Matt.21:43)
On a second note: When one is anointed, it is a confirmation of their official appointment to an office of service. It is not to identify one as being of a group or nation, in this case being a Jew. It is a confirmation. Jehovah did not appoint a nation by anointing them. He confirmed it. The ones that were anointed in the first century were already considered a Christian nation to Jesus and his father. It was confirmed when Jehovah poured out his spirit upon them. Well, what made them a nation in Jehovah’s eyes? It was their faith . Speaking of Abraham, at Romans 4:11, “And he received a sign, namely, circumcision, as a seal of the righteousness by the faith he had while in his uncircumcised state, that he might be the father of all those having faith while in uncircumcision, in order for righteousness to be counted to them.” It was this anointing that was used to confirm them as…
JR
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr 117 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Jr
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Emiliano
Israel's hardening is not permanent. It doesn't get much easier than this Paul clearly says (unless you aren't reading):
A PARTIAL ( as in not completely ) hardening has happened to Israel (still refering to the natural Israel) UNTIL (as in there is an end to that hardening) and thus All Israel will be saved. What part don't you get?
Gentiles get grafted to the tree (Jesus)
The Jews were torn from the tree because of their temporary hardening and disbelief. But that situation will change some day.
Im only stating what is in Romans chapter 11. It is very clear. I dont see what is so confusing. God is going to take away their sins.
that is God's gift and calling and verse 29 says they are IRREVOCABLE!
By regrafting them back in he will once again show his mercy to Israel just as he is showing it to the gentiles.
Hope that is of some help.
God bless -
Jr
Emiliano,
Just in case you missed my last post along with an additional comment at the end: Jesus gave an illustration that depicts the situation perfectly. He speaking of Jehovah’s vineyard, Luke 20:9-16,
“ Then he started to tell the people this illustration: “A man planted a vineyard and let it out to cultivators, and he traveled abroad for considerable time. But in due season he sent out a slave to the cultivators, that they might give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. The cultivators, however, sent him away empty, after beating him up. But he repeated and sent them a different slave. That one also they beat up and dishonored and sent away empty. Yet again he sent a third; this one also they wounded and threw out. At this the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my son the beloved. Likely they will respect this one. ‘ When the cultivators caught sight of him they went reasoning with one another, saying, ‘This is the heir; let us kill him, that the inheritance may become ours’. With that they threw him outside the vineyard and killed him. What, therefore, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and destroy these cultivators and will give the vineyard to others.”
Talking of the Pharisees, Jesus went on, “On hearing they said: “Never may that happen!” But he looked upon them and said : “What, then, does this that is written mean, ‘The stone which the builder rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone’? Everyone falling upon the stone will be shattered. As for anyone upon whom it falls, it will pulverize him.”
Jehovah had every intention of Destroying and replacing this people. That is why Jesus said, “This is why I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits.” (Matt.21:43)
On a second note: When one is anointed, it is a confirmation of their official appointment to an office of service. It is not to identify one as being of a group or nation, in this case being a Jew. It is a confirmation. Jehovah did not appoint a nation by anointing them. He confirmed it. The ones that were anointed in the first century were already considered a Christian nation to Jesus and his father. It was confirmed when Jehovah poured out his spirit upon them. Well, what made them a nation in Jehovah’s eyes? It was their faith . Speaking of Abraham, at Romans 4:11, “And he received a sign, namely, circumcision, as a seal of the righteousness by the faith he had while in his uncircumcised state, that he might be the father of all those having faith while in uncircumcision, in order for righteousness to be counted to them.” It was this anointing that was used to confirm them as…
To Jehovah this spiritual nation is the nation of Jews. They are declared so by their faith, not by an annointing or fleshly inheritance. Jehovah is keeping his promise to Abraham. Abraham is a father to these ones, "that he might be the father of all those having faith while in uncircumcision, in order for righteousness to be counted to them".(Romans 4:11) These are the ones that the prophecies in Revelation apply to. Fleshly desent is no longer a requirement. They blew it. It's FAITH !!
JR -
Emiliano
Jr.
Your right I didnt see your post because I was still typing mine.
This doesnt change anything.
The prophesy in Luke has happened. Because of thier lack of faith.
The kingdom has been taken away. The Gentiles of that time were being included into the kingdom. Paul was aware of that,he touches on it in verse Rom.11:8.Many in the first century felt that emnesty. But Paul told them not to get a big head and not to be wise in their own estimation that is why he said it is only a Partial hardening.Thanks to that hardening now the gentiles are being shown mercy by God and being grafted in and UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles has come the nation of Israel will then no longer be hardened. To this day 2001 they remain in that situation hardened but some day God will graft them in when all the gentiles have come in the nation of Israel will no longer be hardened and will be regrafted into the kingdom.
Dont be wise to your own estimation. Paul said this is the riches of both the wisdome and knowledge of God!How unsearchable are His judgements and unfathomable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord or who became His counselor?
Can't argue with that.
Even if you cant fathom God showing mercy to the nation of Israel and eventualy including them into the kingom, this is God's plan, unless you feel that that the WT who is constantly flip floping their teaching has become His counselor.
God bless
Emiliano -
Jr
Emiliano,
I am impressed!! You have a good knowledge base. Great!! When you look at it at face value it does appear to be just that! You would be correct! The prophecies surrounding this discussion get quite deep. In fact the drama that played out in the first century is about to play out again. This Israel, the 'house of God', is the 'Mysterious Babylon the Great' that will be destroyed. Yes, God will tell his people to get out of her before he destroys her. I am not sure I want to start down that road at this point, but there is a simple way to show that the 'natural Jews' and the Israelites spoken of in Revelation are different. If you look at the names listed in Revelation 7, you will see that the twelve tribes are different than the original 12 tribes. And maybe, we can continue this after I have given it some more thought. If you would like to look at the information about Babylon the Great, 'Logical' has posted this subject on Feb. 9 in 'Bible research'.
JR -
MDS
Hi Emiliano:
The promises to Restored "Israel," and the blessing God heaped upon restored "Israel," are quite lofty. These are just some of the marvelous blessings that are promised by Jehovah God, for our "Israel," of our day, the Restoration of "Israel."
"Israel" is promised at Isaiah 61:6:
"And as for you, the PRIESTS OF JEHOVAH you will be called; the MINISTERS OF OUR GOD you will be said to be..."
As, "Priests," a Royal, Priestly Nation, Restored "Israel," will administrate the "Abrahamic Covenant" to all nations. -- Isaiah 2:2-6; 4:2-6
1 Peter 2:9 says of SPIRITUAL "Israel," first century christians of Peter's Day,
"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."
That is, SPIRITUAL "ISRAEL", of the first century, ... Baptized Christians, members of the "New Covenant," instituted by Jesus Christ as Mediator. Spiritual "Israel," became this "royal priesthood," this "holy nation," likened to the same spiritual status, as ancient Natural Israel originally. Clearly, Spiritual "Israel," in accordance with God's Maganificent Purposes, had indeed REPLACED Natural "Israel," the ones who rejected Jesus. -- See Matt. 21:43; Galatians 6:16
Then, too, we this scriptural statement. Yes, the Apostle James referred to "Christians" during His day as the "Twelve Tribes," of Israel. Let's consider the following verse:
"James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the TWELVE TRIBES that are scattered about." -- James 1:1
These were "Christians," that James was writing here. He was writing the ENTIRE CHRISTIAN CONGREGATION in this divinely inspired letter. The Christian Congregation, as a whole. James was clearly addressing, Christian Brothers of his, the congregation itself, as Spiritual "Israelites," the "Twelve Tribes," as it were. Yes, Christians who were equated, under inspiration in James mind, to the "Twelve Tribes" of Israel. -- See James 1:1.
And just as it can be established, that Spiritual Israel existed in the first century. So too, it can be proven today, that there exists also, modern-day SPIRITUAL "Israel," of our day.
This is why, at Revelation 12:1, which predicts so many events of our day and time, yes, the "woman" is described as having a "crown of 12 stars." This "crown" identifies her, let's us know exactly who she is. Modern-day Spiritual "Israel," of our times.
The "Crown of 12 Stars", each Star, standing for each of the "Twelve Tribes" of Israel. The "woman," symbolizes, "Israel," spiritual "Israel," of our day and time. Modern-day "Israel," that must first be discipline, repent, and finally fully Restored to God's Eternal Favor...Spiritual Israel of our day and time. The verse says:
"And a great sign was seen in heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of TWELVE STARS."
Jehovah promises, Spiritual "Israel," of our day, that they become the "PRIESTS of JEHOVAH," that is, Restored "Israel" of our day and time.
Also, Isaiah 60:11, 12 promises:
"And your gates will actually be kept open constantly; they will not be closed even by day or by night, in order to bring to you the resources of the nations, and their kings will be taking the lead. For any nation and any kingdom that will not serve you will perish; and the nations themselves will without fail come to devastation."
All nations will "serve" Restored "Israel." If they do not, they "perish," off the face of the earth, God promises.
Isaiah 54:17 says of Restored "Israel":
"...ANY TONGUE at all that will rise up against you in the judgment YOU WILL CONDEMN..."
Now, "Emiliano," if this is to be fulfilled within NATURAL "ISRAEL" of the first century, the people who clearly REJECTED Jesus, the foundation stone of the Christian Congregation, as Messiah, then how do you explain Jesus' clear statement mentioned below at
Matthew 12:41, 42 which says:
"Men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with THIS GENERATION [of NATURAL ISRAEL of Jesus' Day] and will CONDEMN IT; because they repented at what Jonah preached, but, Look! something more than Jonah is here. The queen of the south will be raised up in the judgment with THIS GENERATION [of NATURAL ISRAEL of Jesus' Day] and will CONDEMN IT; because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, but, Look! something more than Solomon is here."
Did you notice that these people of OTHER NATIONS, will "CONDEMN" Natural Israel, just as Jesus said. They will "rise up in the judgment," and "CONDEMN" NATURAL ISRAEL, just as Jesus said. They will indeed, do so.
How could this be, if Restored "Israel," is acting in a elevated, PRIESTLY capacity toward ALL OF THE EARTH?
How could this be?
Remember Jesus plainly said to Natural Israel,
"Consequently I say to you people [Natural Israel], it will be MORE ENDURABLE for the land of Sodom on Judgment Day than for you."
If, as you say "Emiliano", Natural Israel is to be EXALTED to such heights as we read up above, then, how can you explain "Sodom," rising up on "Judgment Day," and having a more "endurable", tolerable existence than Restored "Israel?"
How can you explain this?
Clearly, it is SPIRITUAL "ISRAEL", Spiritual "Israel," that will "receive" of all these blessings we have read up above, and will ADMINISTRATE the Abrahamic Covenant, after being SEVERELY DISCIPLINED BY GOD. Restored, Spiritual "Israel" will receive of these Grand Blessings, and not Natural Israel, who clearly rejected Jesus, and the Christian Arrangement of the first century. -- Zechariah 8:20-23.
MDS
Edited by - MDS on 6 March 2001 14:49:48 -
bjc2012
Emiliano,
You said and correctly:
"that is God's gift and calling and verse 29 says they are IRREVOCABLE!"
But, Jehovah does not make irrevocable promises to disobedient humans. When he told natural Israel in Exodus 19:6: "And you yourselves will become to me a kingdom and priest and a holy nation," it was conditional. Verse 5 says: "And now IF you will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then you will certainly become my special property out of all other people because the whole earth belongs to me." Israel did not prove itself to be obedient, which is why Paul said at Romans 9:27: "Although the number of the sons of Israel may be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved." No, Jehovah could not save the entire nation and therefore had the message of salvation given to the gentiles who did respond and so completed the nation of Israel. Due to this situation, Paul could say at Romans 9:6,7: "However, it is not as though the word of God failed. For not all who spring from Israel are really "Israel." Neither because they are abraham's seed are they all children,...."
Why would Jehovah 'dull their sensibilities' or harden their hearts unless they were disobedient? Sure they will be resurrected, but it will not be to any sort of glory but to certain condemnation.
Certainly Jehovah's irrevocable promises will be fulfilled upon 'Israel,' the true seed of Abraham, those who "adhere to the faith of Abraham." (Romans 4:16) -
Emiliano
Jr. and MDS
In the first century there was Israelites who became Christians,
so that easily explains why I find no problem with James speaking to natural israelites the remenant who became obedient believers in the first century. The remenant is not all of Israel. Yes in those days only a few accepted Christ some day the nation of Israel will see their mistake and soften their hearts to thier King Jesus. If it takes God's chastisement in form of bringing all other nations to war with Israel, so be it.
God will show mercy to the natural Israel and to The Gentiles
When the nation of Israel become believers they will be saved.Salvation is not a condemnation.
Remember that Paul is talking to the Gentiles about what is to happen to the natural nation of Israel in the future. The rementant Israelites of those days are not part of whom he is talking about there because these are not the hardened ones. The nation is the hardened one and some day they will be forgiven after they accept Christ. When this happens the gentiles, the remenant Israelites of the first century along with the ones who are becoming Christians until now,and the nation of Isreal who will some day accept Christ and become believers (having the faith of Abraham), all will be in Christ. Being that they will all be in his Kingdom they will all be citizens of the heavenly rule the spirtual Israel. -
MDS
Hi "JR," and "Logical:"
Exodus 19:5, 6 says:
"And now IF you will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, THEN you will certainly become my special property out of all other people because the whole earth belongs to me. And you yourselves will become to me a kingdom and priest and a holy nation..."
Just as "BJC2012" said in the above post, the word "IF" makes the situation "conditional."
The words "If" and "then" are present in the promise from God to natural Israel, "If," and "then." So, natural "Israel" gains the promise, "IF" they obey. It is only "then," when they "obey," that they receive, "inherit" the promises of God.
But if they had a ABSOLUTE GUARANTEE of these blessings, the words "IF," and "then," would not be in the promise at all.
Truly the promise to natural "Israel," was conditional. Obedience was the key factor, just as it was with "Adam and Eve." Obedience was the key factor. God is consistent in all things.
Actually, if natural Israel had a "irrevocable," GUARANTEE to become one day, a "Kingdom and Priestly, Holy Nation" before God, if they had a GUARANTEE...then the word "IF" would not be there at all.
That says it all...I think.
What do you think?
MDS -
Jr
Hi MDS,
By George, I think you've got it! It says it all! "IF" & "THEN" Yep, it says it all. This "IRREVOCABLE" promise that Emiliano mentioned is not so IRREVOCABLE at all. It has always been conditional. It sounds good to ME!! IF THEN UMMM! Great job BJC!
JR