Hi Emiliano:
Isaiah 54:17 says of Restored "Israel":
"...ANY TONGUE at all that will rise up against you in the judgment YOU WILL CONDEMN ..."
Now, "Emiliano," if this is to be fulfilled within NATURAL "ISRAEL" of the first century as you believe, that is, the people who clearly REJECTED Jesus, the foundation stone of the Christian Congregation, as Messiah, then how do you explain Jesus' clear statement mentioned below toward Natural Israel, mentioned below:
Matthew 12:41, 42 which says:
"Men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with THIS GENERATION [of NATURAL ISRAEL of Jesus' Day] and will CONDEMN IT ; because they repented at what Jonah preached, but, Look! something more than Jonah is here. The queen of the south will be raised up in the judgment with THIS GENERATION [of NATURAL ISRAEL of Jesus' Day] and will CONDEMN IT; because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, but, Look! something more than Solomon is here."
Did you notice that these people of OTHER NATIONS, will "CONDEMN" Natural Israel, just as Jesus said. They will "rise up in the judgment," and "CONDEMN" NATURAL ISRAEL, just as Jesus said. They will indeed, do so.
How could this be, if Restored "Israel," is acting in a elevated, PRIESTLY capacity toward ALL OF THE EARTH, administering the "Abrahamic Covenant" to all of the world? -- Isaiah 2:2-6
How could this be?
Can you explain this for us?
Remember Jesus plainly said to Natural Israel,
"Consequently I say to you people [Natural Israel], it will be MORE ENDURABLE for the land of Sodom on Judgment Day than for you."
If, as you say "Emiliano", Natural Israel is to be EXALTED to such heights as we read up above eventually in the end, then, how can you explain "Sodom," rising up on "Judgment Day," given a resurrection life on earth again, and having a more "endurable", tolerable existence than Restored, Exalted, Elevated, Priestly "Israel?"
How can you explain this?
MDS
Identity of 'Spiritual Israel'
by Jr 117 Replies latest watchtower bible
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MDS
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Jr
Emiliano,
you said:quote:
You are totaly ignoring the post on Ezequiel 36
Ezekiel 36 can apply to natural Israel or Spiritual Israel depending on her "identity". That is what this discussion is about, her "identity".
Can you please answer MDS's question above??
JR -
Emiliano
Hi Guys, Sorry for taking so long. Im having problems with my service provider . This is the fourth attempt in sending this post.
Hope it doesnt get lost too.
JR Youve learned a very nasty habit from the WT. Adding more to what is written. You keep putting words in my mouth, show me where I said that only Jews were Christian? Point it out!
Yes a few Jews did become Christian in the first century,it wasnt the whole nation. Most of the believers were gentiles. There is no conflict with what James wrote. You are right the old system was removed. The small number of Jews who became believers have just done so before the rest of the nation of Israel has. There is no problem there its all in the Bible. Remember these are the ones who God will show mercy to, the broken branches which have that have been broken that the wild branches, in other words the gentiles may be grafted.
Tell me this, Who are the enemies mentioned in Romans 11?
What does it mean when Paul says they will be re-grafted? answer that!
Why cant he say that about the (gentiles) wild brances?
Are the wild branches being put back to a tree they were never in before when they are Grafted in? Answer that!
What About these enemies (natural Israel) the natural branches who were broken off? Are they being put back to a tree they have been torn from? Out of these two which branch is being put BACK?
These questions are even easier to answer than those at the bottom of your WT Magazines! The difference is that here you would be underlining and higlighting your Bible or God's words and what his thought on the subject is. The WT magazines words you underline are the answers that they want you to understand! Listen to God' s words not the WT's. Get back to me on the verses presented to you on Romans
11:1 What does Paul mean When saying "God has not rejected His people,has HE? Answer that! And why does he follow with" for I too am a n Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin." Was Pauls blood not Naturally Israelie blood ?
What is this whole Chapter saying ?
In summerize it for you.
1.Natural Israel is the natural brancehes.
2.The gentiles are the wild brancehes.
3.The natural Israel was disobedient that the wild brancehes may be grafted in.
4.The Natural Israel Israel has stumbled but not fallen completely.
5.The nation of Natural Israel were viewed as enemies to the belivers of the first century.
6.They have hardened hearts.
7.This condition is not complete nor permanent.
8. The words "partial hardening" and "until" prove point 7.
9. Thus all of Israel will be saved means just that!
10'Through out the Chapter he is the Romans not to think that Their "enemies will not some day also become believers"
11. When the nation of Israel is re grafted and the gentiles are grafted these both groups will be in Christ. This way both the nation of Israel is included and The gentiles are included in the new system
The system of grace(undeserved kindness) and mercy not the old system of the law that would condemn both groups.
Please show me by number which of these points are not Part of Romans 11.
MDS
You too are twisting and reading more that what I wrote into my words.
Point out to me where I wrote, that it is the first century NauralIsrael of Jesus's day that would be exalted?
You are stumbleing over your own arguments.
You yourself gave me the answer in your supposed objection. That objection is no Objectiion at all!
Didnt you write[of NATURAL ISRAEL of Jesus's day] ?
There is your answer! Jesus was telling that to as you pointed out that Generation.
Boy! that word Generation is such a problem for you Watchtower heads. Jesus in talking to that first century generation he foretold many things that would happen to that first century generation.
The desolation of Jerusalem, no stone would be left upon another.. you know; Jesus told them This of Generation of 1914...oops!thats not in the bible is it? Sorry thats just another false WT speculation
will not pass away... Anyway you get the point. The things that Jesus foretold about this " first century Natural ISRAEL" were fulfilled. Is it just, that these first century Israel are to be judged for not having recognized Jesus as their Messiah on palm Sunday and for having been the ones who had him put to death?
Of course! No confilict there! That makes perfect sense! They will be Judge accordint to what they did, When? In that first century!
There is no natural Israelite that is alive today that existed in the first century. Why would these Israelites in 2001 be judged for
putting Jesus to death? They were simply not even there to have had anything to do with it! Now that doesnt make any sense. It is understandable that the following generations have inherited many of the problems form their first century forefathers. A bad reputation, a bad name, being scattered,having the kingdom taken away, being hated by other nations anti- semitism , a hardened heart, etc. etc. All these things are understandable consequences caused by their first century forefathers.
If a mans great grandfather murdered my greatgrandfather It would not make any sense for me to attempt to put the great grandson on trial! If you were that grandson and I came to you and told you your greatgrandfather killed my greatgrandfather and that I was going to going to take you to trial for that murder. You would say ;"are you crazy or something? I wasn't even born yet. The courts will throw it out." This is how ridiculous your argument sounds!!!
Respond to this MDS.
About Ezequiel 36; It is absolutely Identifying natural Israel here! Point out to me what verse, if any, you could insert "spiritual Israel" and still have it make sense.
For instance, when has spiritual Israel lived in the land that God promised Abraham He would given to his Natural offspring? answer that! Even if spiritual Israel will be heirs of Abrahams faith which I believe to be true, they have never lived in that land for them to return to it! You cant return to a place you have never been in before! How do YOU return ? Explain that! The whole chapter discribes the Restoration of Natural Israel. Webster's Dictionary defines RESTORATION: A bringing back to a former position or condition. Since when does spiritual Israel have a former position or condition in Gods relationship that they may go back to? Answer that! All of Ezequiel is filled with these issues, I've posted them verse by verse. Please respond answering the verses posted! The verses are Gods words not Mine.
I inserted for your benefit (natural Israel) throughout the post of Ezequiel. Try inserting spiritual Israel in the same manner it just doesnt fit in . If you think it does explain How!
MDS, Jr: you keep sidestepping these issuses. What is your response?
Use your own mind if you still have it.
Re: MDS to Tr
That is absurd.
The wt winning some court cases doesnt prove any such thing!
There are many cults who are protected by our constitution
All it shows is that the constitution supports freedom of religion.
OJ Simpson won a court case too!
If he claimed that he must be innocent because if he wasnt God wouldnt have cleared the obstacles that led him to win his aquittal?
Would you belive that?
I bet if the wt told you to believe it, you would!
These claims are absurd!!
God bless
I'll keep praying for you
Emiliano -
Jr
Emiliano,
What is so difficult to understand here?
"He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit." Gal. 3:14
"If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Gal 3:29
Jehovah defines who Israel is. If he decided to make another provision through the gentiles, so be it. You have to accept it. Your determination to show otherwise shows no respect for him or his word.
JR
Edited by - Jr on 9 March 2001 14:26:52 -
bjc2012
JR,
You do see the fallacy his argument, don't you? Every reference made to ‘Israel’ in the Bible he assumes refers to ‘natural Israel’ in spite of the fact that he knows that the name Israel, as of the first century, was no longer synonymous with the natural descendants of Abraham through Jacob. It became aligned with anyone, Jew or Gentile, who demonstrated the faith of Abraham. Abraham’s faith was of such proportions that he was called a ‘friend of God.’ Therefore Paul explains in Romans chapter 4 that all who exercise faith like Abraham’s would be considered ‘his seed,’ hence fulfilling the promise that Abraham would be ‘a father of many nations.’
Throughout all of Israel’s history, their receiving the blessing as Abraham’s seed was always dependent on their obedience to Jehovah’s laws. Even from the beginning, almost as soon as they were brought out of Egypt, they showed their propensity towards disobedience. I think you know the story. Moses even said of them, as recorded at Deuteronomy 31:27: “I well know your rebelliousness and your stiff neck. If while I am yet alive with you today, you have proved rebellious in behavior toward Jehovah, then how much more so after my death!” Verse 29 further says: “For I well know that after my death you will without fail act ruinously, and you will certainly turn aside from the way about which I have commanded you; and calamity will be bound to befall you at the close of the days, because you will do what is bad in the eyes of Jehovah so as to offend him by the works of your hands.” How right he was!
Fifteen hundred or more years later, Jesus has to tell them “the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation producing its fruit.” And this is exactly what happened, the calamity that Moses spoke of. They lost the opportunity that had been originally opened to them alone, that is, to become a “nation of priest, a holy nation.” This particular nation, a new nation, was now comprised of both Jews and Gentiles, mostly Gentiles as so few Jews took advantage of what had been offered to them. The mere fact that Gentiles were allowed to partake of Jehovah’s offer show conclusively that natural Israel had forfeited their opportunity and it would never be offered to them again, as a nation. They have put themselves in the unenviable position of pagan nations being able to point their fingers at them and say “What fools you were to turn down such a golden opportunity. We would never have done that had this offer been made to us!” And Jesus himself vouches for this as he said,
“..…if the powerful works had taken place in Tyre and Sidon that took place in you, they would long ago have repented in sackcloth and ashes. Consequenty I say to you, it will be more endurable for Tyre and Sidon on Judgement Day than for you.” (Matthew 11:21.22) Why? Because they are still continuing in their disobedience as Moses predicted. Paul said of them at 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16: “For you became imitators, brothers, of the congregations of God that are in Judea in union with Christ Jesus, because you also began suffering at the hands of your own countrymen the same things as they also are suffering at the hands of Jews, who killed even the Lord Jesus and the prophets and persecuted us. Furthermore, they are not pleasing God, but are against the interests of all men, as they try to hinder us from speaking to people of the nations that these might be saved, with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But his wrath has at length come upon them.” They ‘always fill up the measure of their sin’ show that they were still as Moses described them 1500 years earlier, disobedient, sinning to the max!
The scriptures in Ezekiel that he quoted were never fulfilled upon natural Israel and have not been so to this day. The kingdom has been taken away from them and will not be returned to this nation. These scriptures will be fulfilled upon another ‘Israel!”
Jehovah determines who will be the recipient of his mercy and blessings. (Romans chapter 9) He is not hogtied by any natural descent claim or any other such human right. He proved this by his selecting Jacob to carry the birthright rather than Esau, who was the first-born son. Esau had God’s disapproval because ‘he did not appreciate sacred things.’ Jehovah would not allow someone like Esau to be in charge of this ‘sacred’ matter, as he will not allow faithless natural Israel to be in charge of his kingdom. Hebrews 11:6 attests to this. It says: “Without faith it is impossible to please God.” Besides this, Jehovah is the one who determines who will be called the ‘seed of Abraham’ as John said at Matthew 3:9: “And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘As a father we have Abraham.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.” Yes, Jehovah can manufacture a seed and use it to fulfill his promise to Abraham.
What are your thoughts? -
Emiliano
JR
Its so easy Ive already answered it in the previous post.
1. Gal.3:14 is reflected by what Paul said about the broken branches that the wild ones would be grafted in.
2. The promise of faith God made with Abraham. Anyone who is faithfull is of Christ. When Natural Israel's heart is softened by God they too will belong to Christ.
The few remenant Jews that became believers in the first century,The gentiles that become believers and finally when God softens the heart of Natural Israel they too will be faithfull. Go back to Ezeq. and Rmns Post.
You keep asking the same questions . Ive already answered .
And yet Ive noticed that you guys are not tackleing Ezeq. and Romans
You are avoiding it. Is it that the Watchtower did not program you to do any thinking of your own?
Answer the questions of my previous post.
Emiliano -
Jr
Bjc2012,
Your understanding and knowledge of the scripture are indeed quite impressive. It is this knowledge, accurate knowledge, that leads one to know Jehovah, the true God, his debt and wisdom. When we look at the scripture at face value, we can only be fooled by Jehovah. If he wanted his plan to be understood by all men, at all times, he would have made it with no hidden fixtures.. But he didn't! That's why Daniel was told to seal up the book til the time of the end. Jehovah is the great revealer of prophecy. Gen 40:7-9," ...Then Joseph said to them, "Do not interpretations belong to God?..." These scripture have to be revealed by him. No, they cannot be read norunderstood with a simple eye. It is not expected that someone can understand his plan without direct revelation from Jehovah. But, what gets me is the haughtiness associated with the presumption that Jehovah has no choice, no options. As you mentioned at Matthew 3:9, “And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘As a father we have Abraham.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.” Yes, Jehovah can manufacture a seed and use it to fulfill his promise to Abraham.
JR -
Emiliano
If the watchtower has such direct accurate knowledge in these last days why have they had so many failed prophecies?
Because they dont have accurate knowledge
Only false speculations!
Read your Bible not the Watchtower inaccurate Speculations. -
bjc2012
JR,
Now that was a mouthful!!! -
bjc2012
Emiliano,
I am not a JW and have not been one since 1991.