by Francois 163 Replies latest jw friends
gravedancer,
: OK...so we say we will believe in God. Who is he/she?
She is an overweight black lady on welfare and living in the South Bronx.:
: What does that belief mean?
Don't know. Just feels good.
: What do I have to do to show I believe in this God?
Nothin'
: What does God expect from me?
Nothin'
I'm lazy. I like easy beliefs!
Farkel
Farkel,
You believe God in a wrong way. I think that you and AlanF can make a perfect couple. The Odd Couple!!
Hello All:
I never thought this thread would go this far, or would have such high quality, thoughtful responses, or would fail to degrade into arguing and name calling and such as that. Thank you all very much.
Id like now to attempt to address the issues raised since I was here last. Im taking that position in this conversation since Im the guy whos representing himself as offering a bridge between the two sides. But please bear with me, since Im a writer and a glossophiliac I tend to make long posts when challenged like you folks do.
I believe in the existence of God. I also believe in evolution as the Divine Technique explaining the fact of our existence.
Unfortunately, Gravedancer, I also believe that the existence of God cannot be provennor disproventhrough the use of logic, nor through any function of the left brain. I firmly believe that the existence of God can only be proven an individual in and through the direct experience of that individual with the indwelling spirit of God. And when once you have had such an experience and you want to discuss it with others, no words are necessary for anyone who has had their own similar experience; and no amount of words will suffice for anyone who has not had their own experience with the spirit.
As for showing you the existence of God then, Im saying it cant be done. I do, however, claim to be able to introduce to you a technique wherewith you can prove the existence of God to and for yourself.
Yes, Larc, Ive made the point numerous times that I believe in God and in evolution too, and it seems not to register with the folks here. And thats frustrating. Also, please understand that Im not offering any alternatives to evolution, except the participation of Deity therein. It seems that the creationists cant believe it and the evolutionists wont believe it. However, they offer nothing more than the indisputable fact that we are obviously here and had to come from somewhere.
Gravedancer , you want me to state what I establish as the basis for my beliefs and I hope Ive already answered that to the extent that I understand the question. Could you restate it? And know also my belief that evolution is a divine technique is the result of years of considerable research, meditation, and just plain common sense. Im sorry to disappoint, but Im afraid that there is no external proof for you since proving that evolution is a divine technique is tantamount to proving the existence of God which I have already proposed cannot be done; at least proving the existence of God cannot be done in a manner that you would at the moment find satisfactory. Larc has said it best in that science can only deal with what is measurable, and God cannot be measured at least he has never been measured.
If you are serious about bridging the gap between the two camps, Im afraid this leaves you on the horns of a dilemma, one response to which is just to abandon the question entirely. Ill have my own question for the creationists later on.
GSX , I wish I could agree that semantics are being bandied about here, but quite frankly I feel this is one of the most honest, well-thought out, and adult threads Ive seen here in over a year. I hope you have fun and will come back after some reflection and tell us all what you thought and think.
Thanks for your kind remarks, Hillary. Id like to second your musician friend about his music-making experiences. As a writer, I have a similar experience when I write. When Im really ON its just like taking dictation from God, absent any conscious input of my own. The words just seem to flow forth from my mind and I merely write them down, often without correction. But just as soon as I slow down enough to attempt to analyze the process, to think about what Im doing, its almost like a light is shut off in my mind, and I cant capture whats going on. And the word flow is curtailed after that, too. So now Ive developed the habit of NOT thinking about what Im doing. I just let it flow and dont interrupt by getting my left brain involved.
I, too, have a great deal of respect for De Chardin, his unfortunate involvement with Peking Man notwithstanding, he was a great spiritual thinker. And I certainly do agree that its spiritual strength that impels us to go forward. The JWs convince their droids that such reaching is a spiritual disease. And yet even their own translation of the bible says that God can be found if we really search for and grope for Him. What is searching and groping if not reaching in fact if not overreaching? A mans reach should exceed his grasp, or whats a heaven for?
Quantum , you know I cant agree with what, to me, is superficial thinking. Im very sorry. And I think its frankly not honest of you to use the scripture fraction about God being one not of disorder, but of peace, since that verse refers to an apostle attempting to quiet an unruly crowd at a meeting. It has nothing whatever to do with the discussion of evolution. Its just another Jehovahs Witness dishonest attempt to apply a scripture that has no application to the thing being discussed. And I submit that if evolution is indeed Gods plan, as I say it is, then there is no crap shoot nor chance about it. Evolution is coming about according to a divine plan that you cannot see from your limited perspective. But take heart, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should no matter how much or little we understand it today.
But I am curious, Quantum. What about the idea of evolution as a divine technique is so unbelievable to you? Are you saying that God couldnt have done it that way? How do you know? Are you saying he didnt do it that way? How do you know? Are you saying that God wouldnt do it that way? How do you know? Are you taking that position because you cant personally understand how it could have been done that way? If so, then youre saying that God is limited to the extent of whats possible according to your imagination; and a limited God isnt God at all. Can you tell us then why you object to the idea entire?
Are you not daunted by the fact that in every debate between religion and science that religion has lost, and ignominiously at that?
Lone Wolf , you are a man after my own heart. I couldnt agree with you more. I fully believe that the idea of evolution as a divine technique is objectionable to creationists because its forbidden to them to even consider it. And if thats the case, and I believe it is, then it is reprehensible. Its more than reprehensible. Its the worst form of institutionalized, enforced ignorance. It represents religious leaders dragging their followers backward toward the dim and distant past, to an age of utter darkness over which they prevailed for a thousand years. And in that time, spiritual growth on this planet came to a virtual halt. If JWs controlled this world, all genetic research would stop. Most medical research would stop. All spiritual progress would stop in the name of the tradition of the JWs teachings. Look how hard they cling to their absurd blood teaching, one which they obviously wish would just quietly go away saving them from utter embarrassment and more proof that they no more speak for God than the rocks do. In fact, Im cheering for the rocks.
Gravedancer , I once was where you are now, as have been many, many others. I started out my educational life as an organic chemist, went from there to geology, and from there to physics, and wound up in journalism because I could no longer deny the creative urges from the right brain. I spent quite some time as an agnostic, and not a little time as an atheist. As noted above, however, direct experiences in and with the indwelling spark of divinity that lives in the minds of us all can have a re-directing force. Im beginning to understand that you may be what I would call an intellectual seeker. Youd like to believe in the existence of a God, but the evidence for it? Where is it? It seems that if God created the brain and endowed it with mind that there should be unequivocal evidence that appeals to that mind. In my experience, the mind is not the spirit but it is certainly the gateway thereto. Id be happy to take that up with you privately.
Farkel , thanks for showing up. I think you have a great point. You know the humano-centric universe and concept of God that perceives homo sapiens as the whole and center of creation isnt all that far removed from the idea of a heliocentric universe. In my conception of things, the universe teems with life, its fairly wiggling with it in every corner. And, one day when we become spiritual enough as a race on this planet, we may be admitted into the overt brotherhood of the sons of God. I think we may have to prove our worth prior to membership however. Weve got probationary status at this point. And looking around at Islam, and at Jehovahs Witnesses, and a thousand other cults and isms, it seems like the day of our induction is infinitely far away.
Yes, man does seem to think hes a special creation. And I suppose we are, but not as special as we suppose. Frankly, I think most human religions continue to be religions of fear, primitive and puerile, worshipping a tribal type conception of God. Jehovah is certainly a god of tribal peoples conceptions of which have not been updated in thousands of years. And I say that the angry thunderer of Sinai and Horeb cannot be comported with the loving Father revealed by The Master. We need to cleanse our conceptions of God from all superstitions, all tribal characteristics, and above all from all fear.
Thank you all again for a great thread. If its over, that will be too bad. It seems were are getting somewhere. Are there no more spokespersons for creationism?
Francois
Note on above post. I created that in Word and pasted it into the thread. And it's lost some of its formatting, especially apostrophes and underlines and bolds. My bad. Sorry.
Frank
The literature of the Bible is often overlooked in favor of some doctrinal issue. The Bible has been written by many authors and in many styles as I'm sure you are aware. However, I have had a certain amount of contention with those who take the Bible literally only when it serves their doctrinal persuasions, but do not when that would interfear with their beliefs.
To believe God is not aware of certain situations which happens on HIS created world or worlds is absurd. On the one hand we will give to GOD his deity beyond mans understanding and on the other take it away simply because some old jew for literary emphesis makes a little story out of his rendition. Or, GOD himself is telling the story so man ( being so far below GODS intellect) can better equate mans relationship to HIMSELF. Like Abraham and Sodom & Gamorah.
I know how the JW's interpret these verses in the Bible where some angels came as messangers for GOD to see what was going on as if GOD had no idea etc.. This is a typical literary form often used in the bible. I am reminded of a kind of obscure scripture found in Matthew 17:27 (KJV) where Jesus sends Peter on an errand for some money he is to find in the mouth of a fish. If jesus wanted some money he could just as well pulled it out from behind Peters ear. The point being< CHRIST and GOD know everything at all times , places and circumstances. It is biblical if you take the time to reseach it. He lives in the infinite and enternal world which is continually before him. He doesn't have to scratch his head and ask what's going on. His knowledge and understanding surpasses all we will ever know. To think that He goes through a process of finding things out similar to the way we have to, is not grasping the full understanding of GODS omnicience. It is a fault in man to interpret the Bible totally as written. That is why there are sects on top of sects with differing opinions on matters like these.
Computers are made which are contiually monitoring certain functions in certain pieces of machinery. some of these are more complex than others. Are we to assume man can make computers to do more than GOD? THINK ABOUT IT!!!!
QUANTUM
Quantum,
That's all very interesting, but it has nothing whatever to do with the subject, nor does it answer any of the questions I put to you.
Francois
Frank,
Thanks for the honest reply. I can totally respect an answer put forth with such candour and not a load of tap dancing around just to stay in a debate. I have more respect for your answer than I do for most of the answers submitted by "regular believers" and I do not doubt your sincerity.
Perhaps I am at some stage....everyone is always at some stage (it's almost become cliched to say that). As I stated in the past at no pint of my life (even as a kid growing up as a JW) have I ever "felt God". While growing up it became very popular to be "born again" by the Chriistians in my community. I would listen to them and see them and they seemed so emotionally involved with God and Jesus. While we were always taught that we were superior because we had the "truth" I felt so hollow in comparison to the "born-agains" around me. Even if they were worshipping a false God he was so real to them and here I was supposedly worshipping the true God, Jehovah, and I felt absolutely nothing inside. Then I would hear talks and others claiming this deep love for Jehovah and how Jehovah can read the heart and I would just sink....."If he can read my heart I am toast".
I was once told by an elder that one of the most disrespectful things we can do is to fall asleep while we are praying. OH NO.....I was guilty of that so many times.
So where is all this drivel about me leading? Heck I don't know....but I have never felt so free - free from guilt, as I did once I read the work of Robert Cialdini and once I understood from his work how cults work (Istrongly encourage everyone to read his book). Then I read the "Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins and I knew that I was an atheist and an evolutionist. Here was someone who could take the argument from Romans 1:20 and turn it on its ear. No longer did I need to believe that "if their is design that there is a designer". This was further confirmed in person when I spoke with Janh and found out that we shared so many views in common (although he had held and understood them for longer so was more articulate with them).
Janh and I chatted again a couple of days ago and I brought up how the toughest part of being an atheist is the "loss of hope" and the finality one feels at knowing that life is so fragile and there is truly only one chance. If one of my loved ones dies thats it....its over between us. I am still not strong enough to deal with that reality. I still wish I could believe in a paradise and a resurrection but I can not go on any longer feeling like I am deceiving myself. When I was a believer I never felt like I was a believer, there was not emotiuon to it.....and if we profess this deep love for God and he for us there has to be emotional attachment or else it is just a chore.
Perhaps I just have a lousy imagination. Perhaps I am being too academic about it and requiring too much proof, but if one is to invest in something one needs to understand what one is investing in, otherwise one is speculating and I have the hardest time putting loads of time into an endeavour based on speculation.
Gravedancer, I could really feel the agony in your post. Like so many, you have been lied to and mislead by a religious cult. I've been very hurt by it too, and it took many years for me to recover. To say that it was damaging to my spiritual growth is an understatement. How any organization that can claim it's so interested in avoiding "stumbling" people while at the same time making a daily practice of it is beyond my comprehension.
I am very aware of the loss of hope subsequent to becoming an atheist. But you know, GD, to come out and flatly state there is no God, and to give up the idea of a life continuing beyond this short season in the flesh certainly takes a great deal of faith. So there's no reason to doubt that you can have faith if the conditions are right for it. And I don't feel that you are at all out of bounds in requiring evidence of some kind for a belief in an Absolute Reality.
The faith of an atheistic evolutionist is no less impressive; as is the faith of an atheistic scientist. But in my experience neither the evolutionist nor the scientist is willing to admit that much or perhaps all of what they believe is taken as articles of faith.
Just a quick example if you will. We have based virtually our entire concept of the universe on the Big Bang Theory (which is now unraveling after all these decades), and the resulting rush of galaxies outward. We measure the rate of retrogression by the technique of measuring red shift, which I'm assuming you know all about. Thus our entire view of the nature of the expansion (or possible contraction) of the universe is based on a human conceit!! What is this conceit?
We say that the amount of displacement of the hydrogen spectral emission line reveals the rate of recession of the object being so measured. The conceit is that we claim that we here on this insignificant planet with our humble understanding of the nature of reality have discovered and identified each and every possible constituent element making up the entire universe. I think we're on shaky ground making that claim. Very shaky indeed.
What if that that line ain't hydrogen? What if it's dilithium? Or some other element we know nothing about, and CAN know nothing about? To say that's impossible because of this or that reason is a further conceit. We just do not know and have no way of knowing that we do not know. What if the entire universe and everything in it was to suddenly expand in size in the split of a second? How would we know? We wouldn't; we couldn't. All our measuring instruments would have doubled in size, too. Everything would appear to be the same. The point of that little example is that we don't know what we don't know. Seems obvious, but we don't spend much time - or don't seem to - thinking about such things. We'd much rather ponder things we DO know, not consider that we don't know what we don't know and letting it go at that.
Anyway, as noted, there are ways to prove to yourself that God exists. But just like discussing evolution with with a creationist - the creationist must be honest and unemotional and be possessed of an open mind. And the irony of the proof of the existence of God, should you attain it, is that it will be personal to you and to you alone. It will be the most real experience of your life, and at the same time the most ineffable. It's a very interesting journey - well worth taking.
Remember too that atheism is also a belief in God of a sort, a belief that has a negative sign in front just like an algebraic notation.
I am very much enjoying our conversation and that with the others as well. See? It can be done, these conversations between science and religion, between evolutionists and creationists. And I feel that I've offered a bridge between the two. Would you agree, or am I rushing to judgement?
Many Thanks,
Frank
Edited by - Francois on 6 July 2002 17:59:39
Edited by - Francois on 6 July 2002 18:1:58
Francois,
See? It can be done, these conversations between science and religion, between evolutionists and creationists. And I feel that I've offered a bridge between the two. Would you agree, or am I rushing to judgement?
I know your comment was directed towards Gravedancer but I would just like to say: Yes, you have managed to bridge the gap and open a door for discussion.
Thank You,
IW
Pastor Russell + Age of Reason = Francoise (?)
Pastor Russell + Age of Reason + "Judge" Rutherford + "Zen and the Art of Assholiness" = David Icke (?)
