Anti-Evolutionists Wanted !!!!

by Francois 163 Replies latest jw friends

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  gsx1138

  I'm very much enjoying this thread despite being pushed back to obscurity. Perhaps it would be better to pick this topic back up on another part of the board to where I don't have to search high and low for it. As far as believing in God or a higher power I do. It is pretty much in the same vein as Francois although I do identify myself as Wiccan despite not believing everything the system teaches (never could get that in the WTS). I believe what I believe and it is probably different than others. I hear athiests claim that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and the burden is on the believer. This is somewhat true. However, evidence is only required if I'm trying to tell you that you're wrong. Hence I have to prove why you're wrong. I think most of can agree also that some people really don't want to be convinced of anything they just want to argue. As far as the topic at hand, I've stated that I believe in some form of evolution just not what I've heard from the scientific community so far.
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  Francois

  Thanks, Island Woman, I hope we can continue in this vein.

  Hi GSX, I hope you had a good time while you were gone. I've asked Simon to promote this thread since the old bttt doesn't work any more. We'll see.

  Wicca is a beautiful belief system - Pagan, as the Catholic Church would have it. And since, after the Church killed all the Wiccans and therefore wrote the history of those times, of course they said that Wiccans worshipped the devil and sacrificed children. If they only knew. But organization seems to do that to religion, turn it into an unforgiving judge of orthodoxy.

  Yeah, and you're also right about only having to prove your position if you're attempting to convince someone else. But even in the teeth of incontrovertible evidence no man can be convinced against his will.

  Well, shall we plough on?

  Francois
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  SixofNine

  as noted, there are ways to prove to yourself that God exists.

  I noted that you made that assertion and then quickly chose not to provide any details. This is after all, what 99% of all the turmoil and bloodshed humanity has labored under is spawned from. Please, do tell. Here, in public. I assume the process gives some pretty strong hints as to God's nature as well?

  Edited by - SixofNine on 6 July 2002 18:43:37

  Edited by - SixofNine on 6 July 2002 18:44:0
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  Francois

  Unfortunately, the process required to achieve the awareness we are discussing is highly individual, and does not admit of mass attack. I think it's safe to say that there is no way to prove the existence of God via the logical left brain. If that were not the case, the existence of God would have long been a settled issue, wouldn't it?

  Remember how in the bible it is recommended to "be still and know"?
  Remember that we are told that God is "not far off" from each of us?
  Remember the words "seek and you will find"?

  And there are many, many more examples of these kinds of statements. Consider the Tao Te Ching and how it recommends aligning one's self with the vast flow of reality.

  There is nothing new in the technique of approach to the individual proof of God's existence. It has been known for thousands of years, but few have the discipline to practice it. Indeed, the characterization of how such proof must be approached is "really search" and "grope" and words to that effect. Must be a reason for this apparent difficulty of approach.

  In a nutshell, then, one must quiet the constant babble of the left brain, the insistent refusal of the ego to go along with the plan, overcome animal inertia, and awaken spiritual potentials that we all have. God is there in that "small, quiet voice" and accepting its leading is totally optional.

  So, in order to touch this central Reality, the diamond center, agape, hessed, atman, samhadi, or whatever you'd prefer to call it, one must concentrate on that which you must stop doing, as opposed of that which one must begin to do. This is the very meaning of the idea that his "yoke is easy and his load is light." It consists of an effortless doing, of restful work. The technique of approach is rife with such apparent inconsistencies.

  It was and is not my intention to provide lessons on these techniques. This thread is supposed to be a consideration of evolution and creationism. However, given the challenge in your question, and the proximity of the two concepts, I thought I'd at least lift the corner of the curtain.

  I do hope that now we can get back to the original intent of the thread before people start losing interest. Maybe they already have done.

  Many thanks 6o9
  Francois

  P.S. - Oh, yes, God's nature. When you finally make contact, you'll know. He's different for everyone.

  Edited by - Francois on 6 July 2002 19:14:21
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  patio34

  Dear Francois,

  There are many good points on this thread. However, just one I'd like to make is that there may be more options that humans haven't developed yet. Even if evolution were someday proven to be untrue, it wouldn't make creation true. There may be choices C, D, or E yet.

  Pat
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  SixofNine

  And at the end of all this, when you've found god, how is your life improved over and above smugness?

  That, btw, is not a flippant question. We both know there is smugness involved, we both know what smugness feels like, we both know the ego loves the blanket of smugness, we both know that 2.75 and a fundie christian's smugness will get you years of spiritual abuse and a latte at Starbucks.

  We both know that is certain circles, speaking "spiritually" will get one laid.

  What is the real, soul fulfilling advantage to all this struggle?

  As to the orginal thread, how far can a discussion that basically states that 'god could have used evolution as his creative process' go? Sure enough. And if a god exist, said god did use evolution. Usually, when someone argues whether or not evolution has happened, it is because they won't let go of the bible (their god, really, it seems to me). In which case, that is the discussion to have, and we've had it many times.
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  patio34

  Hi Six,

  you asked:

  And at the end of all this, when you've found god, how is your life improved over and above smugness?

  I would counter that not only is your life NOT improved, but it is wasted in a sense waiting for something better, that's nothing but a dream.

  As the saying goes, you only go around once, and you better take it instead of waiting and letting life pass you by. How tragic. Even the Bible says "If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are most to be pitied." Perhaps, and I believe this to be true, their smugness is all they ever have.

  Frenchy posted a poem on here once saying ----actually I'll go get it. Wait right here . . .

  Pat
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  patio34

  Whew! I'm back. Thanks for waiting (heh, heh, "Thanks for my sister, Waiting). Here's the poem:

  I waited

  Oh how bland the world doth seem
  When viewed next to Elysians fields
  And this life, O how fleeting and brief
  When set against all of eternity

  For hope is a lover canst thou see
  Which forever lies beyond our reach
  For favors promised we purchase wait
  With lifes fabric, time, we gladly pay

  Till one day the garment be truly gone
  And naked we stand, truly alone
  So with regret we breathe a sigh
  She never came and now I must die

  --The French Knight

  Pat

  Edited by - Patio34 on 6 July 2002 19:47:39
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  QUANTUM

  Francios:
  Paul, in speaking on the resurrection, refers to the different qualities of flesh as follows: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, and another of fishes, and another of birds. (1 Cor. 15:38-39.)[KJV] These different qualities seem to be inherent in the several species, as much so as the properties of silver, gold, copper, iron, and other minerals are inherent in the matter in which they are contained, whilst herbs, according to their kind, possess their specific properties, or as the leading properties of earth, air, and water, are distinct from one another; and hence, on physiological grounds, this principle being admitted, and it cannot be controverted, it would be impossible to take the tissues of the lower, or, indeed, of any order of fishes, and make of them an ox, a bird, or a man; as impossible as it would be to take iron and make it into gold, silver, or copper, or to produce any other changes in the laws which govern any kind of matter. Self initiated doctrine, which is not remotely found in the BIble, which completely ignores all the revealed truth, is simply a caving in to secularism and their bumbling and forever changing theories. Are GODS ways different or greater than our ways.......The contention I have always had with JW's is their incredible lack of understanding the DOCTRINE of FAITH which is so COMMANDINGLY stated in the Bible I can hardly believed it could be so disregared or over looked. Their is hardly a thing which is upon this earth that cannot be compared to every other thing. Ones eyes are blue like the sky...does that make us related? in some ways it does. but even Darwin was worried that many of the things he saw in nature did not add up. The list is long and I will not produce it here. It also seems to be an inherrent problem with ex JW's that they can't fully break away from the falacious doctrines that the WTS brainwashed them to begin with. To know the things of GOD cannot be known simply by reading the Bible. I refer you to one scriptures which will lead you to the many possibilities. {JAMES 1:5} As far as GOD putting a little spec like a very small computer chip in something like DNA, which somehow contolled evolution, is an off the wall concept demonstating the "foolishness of man"...pure fiction with no regard to the available science or Biblical evidences. Facts never change, but the inferences from them are changeable. The careful man does not become so enamored of an hypothesis or a theory that he cannot distinguish it from a fact. Theories of science can no more overthrow the facts of religion than the facts of science. One cannot build a faith upon the theory of evolution, for this theory is of no higher order than any other inference, and is therefore in a state of constant change.
  

  The theory of evolution as presently taught posits that higher forms of life arose gradually from lower stages of living matter. Inheritable genetic changes in offspring are assumed to be spontaneous rather than the result of arranged or directed forces external to the system.

  This theory conflicts with a basic law of chemistry, the second law of thermodynamics, which states in part that it is not possible for a spontaneous process to produce a system of higher order than the system possessed at the beginning of the change.

  An example of a spontaneous process is a boulder that dislodges from a mountaintop and rolls down the mountain. The only way to get the boulder back up the mountain (thereby increasing its height, or the order of the system) is for energy outside the system to be expendedsuch as someone directing the process by seeing that the rock is carried up the mountain.

  We see improved strains and varieties of plants and animals developed through judicious selection of their parents. But we would have to agree with those who understand the limitation defined in the second law of thermodynamics limitation that such changes can only occur if guided or if outside energy is available to improve the system.

  I believe all of those scriptures that pertain to the creation of man. But the decision to believe is a spiritual one, not made solely by an understanding of things physical, for we read that the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. ( 1 COR. 2:14)

  It is incumbent upon each informed and spiritually attuned person to help overcome such foolishness of men who would deny divine creation or think that man simply evolved. By the Spirit, we perceive the truer and more believable wisdom of God.

  As for your ignorance about "ORDER"...... Many verses can be quoted where GOD is instructing someone to..." put their house in order......set in order....to be done in order....etc.,etc,....anyone using a grain of brain matter would conclude that if GOD wants us to be orderly in conducting our affairs it's because HE does and is. Like I said, I jumped the fence and didn't read all of the posts but I think I have a handle on them now. Finally, I will conclude this tome with a remark about the Atonement which someone else brought into the discussion. What a strange phenomenon! Why does it seem that the most important principle of our existence is almost totally misunderstood or at best, ignored? It is as if someone had died and left us a bequest in which we have no interest, since accepting it would entail a change in our life-style.
  
  Through the centuries, while heated controversy and debate have raged over evolution, atheism, the sacraments, the Trinity, authority, predestination, faith and works, etc., there has been virtually no argument or discussion at all about the meaning of the Atonement. Why were there no debates or pronouncements in the synods? People either do not care enough or do not know enough even to argue about it. In matters of atonement, the scriptures engage us in a very serious, thoughtful, and lifelong project; but the minimal involvement which makes for popular religion plainly shows that something has been removed which has caused the Gentiles to stumble. It was known from the beginning that the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehend[eth] it not. ( JOHN 1:5 ) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. ( JOHN 1:10-11)
  
  So why bother with this hopelessly unpopular doctrine? Because there are always some who do accept it: But as many as received him, to them he gave the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. { JOHN 1: 12-13}
  
  That makes them the children of God before they lived in the flesh, and what more consummate at-one-ment than to resume their status as sons of God? For their sake, it was all worth it. If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. { JOHN 15:24} The Atonement makes it possible for all men everywhere to live again with there Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ. Not all will be worthy of this gift but some will. { It will be a great many more than the false doctrine of 144,000 preached by the Anti Christ..WTS.}I myself am in real danger because of my propensity for sarcasm. The Bible is one of the spring boards which help us understand the mysteries of GOD but I assure you there are others. QUANTUM
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  SixofNine

  See?