Lots of Jehovah Bashing in Here

by Perfection Seeker 57 Replies latest jw experiences

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  deddaisy

  tkmmorgan, I remember reading Pascal's wager in a philosophy class....it is a "safe" bet, the thing is, I could never see anyone, in reality, believing in God just because it was a safe bet......If there is a "God," I believe this power would be one of sufficient enough intelligence to know if this belief existed in the heart, or merely as a forced survival mechanism.

  This is what so irritates me about the Witnesses' belief system.......there are so many sincere witnesses, but there are just as many, if not more, witnesses that base their beliefs on their need to conquer their fears of growing old, and dying. (I mean, you have to hand it to the WTS with their seductive "live forever," "stay young and beautiful," "never grow old" spiel......"oh gee, no thanks, I'd rather get old and ugly and die...." ) the thing is, a lot of the witnesses become witnesses, not out of their love for God, but because they actually convince themselves that they can avoid being old, ugly, and dead.......and if they can avoid all this ugliness by just becoming enslaved to the WTS, then they will literally sell their souls and loved ones, if need be, to do just that....... ooohhhh baby, that's better than a permanent facelift!

  I once read that some queen and her son had all reference to reincarnation deleted from the Bible because they believed they would lose their control over the common people if the commoners realized their fate was in their own hands. Maybe the WTS moves along the same lines.......
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  tkmmorgan

  AlanF,

  Thanks for the welcome.

  You are 100% correct about Pascal's Wager. It is a gross oversimplification and one must believe first in God or the whole thing falls completely apart. Which makes it moot in the first place. It seems good on the outset but with further study even for someone who believes in God it dosen't have any real value. The comments I made are meant to be taken in the context of the wager. It is just something that is thought provoking and independent thought is an absolute essential for mankind. Outside the box thinking is, IMO, responsible for the progression of our race. You tore it up too quickly thoughdang it. I should have known though having read almost all of your stuff here http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/index2.htm

  Anyway, it is a pleasure to have you respond to my post since as I said I have been reading your articles and have become a fan, if that is the correct term. You have a way of pointing things out without being arrogant even though I am out of my league.

  Open discussion enriches us all

  Kismet -

  What about the aspect if there is a God/Creator, does he give a damn? Is it a god as described in scripture? Who's scriptures? It can't really be boiled down to does he exist or not. All your results were formulated on a Christian bias (judgement vs damnation).

  That is the heart of the problem. Quite correct.

  Valis-

  Can you apply your diagram to other religions besides a Christian one and still make sense of it all, especially where "infinite reward" has various meanings?

  No. Another problem.

  Deddaisy-

  I could never see anyone, in reality, believing in God just because it was a safe bet.

  If they did they would be no better than the JW's.

  Thanks for your input

  Todd

  Edited by - tkmmorgan on 11 July 2002 18:7:2
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  tkmmorgan

  I'm a newbie on this board so if this question has been answered already I apologize for my ignorance but,

  For those of you who don't believe in God, are you evolutionists? Or do you have a 3rd explaination for our being here?

  Whatever you believe is the method-why do you believe it?
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  deddaisy

  "For those of you who don't believe in God, are you evolutionists?"

  tkmmorgan, I personally still struggle with the concept of "God," and even being able to define God. Sometimes it seems that "God" is a collective consciousness. Other times I feel that God is nothing more than rantings of mad men. The thing is, our thoughts are abstract, so why can't we also be. I mean, I guess I mean that maybe we don't have to necessarily come to any final conclusion regarding God. Look at kids, their minds are always a "work in progress," which is what makes kids so free. They don't worry about coming to conclusions or where they came from or where they're going. They are free. Because truth over-rides hope, we don't have to be burdened with the fear that unless we know everything it won't be so.

  you know I said in my post that I could never see anyone, in reality, believing in God just because it was a safe bet. and you commented that then they would be no better than JWs. It made me realize that not only a lot of JWs do this, but in reality, a lot of people in a lot of organized religions do it. How many people hide behind some religion, like they're going to fool God and sneak into heaven, paradise earth, or somehow avoid hell, purgatory, on and on and on.......so I take back that statement, in reality, alot of people "believe" in God because it's a safe bet........

  evolution is interesting....I've never actually researched it or got into it enough to make an informed decision, but my husband is very big on evolution and creation. He believes that God created man through evolution, that evolution was his plan......I often wonder what man would believe in if he carried around absolutely no "baggage" from a religious upbringing. sun gods? moon goddesses?
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  Golden Girl

  Well from where I stand...I see just as much, if not more, of people bashing each other on these boards...

  For some reason that bothers me more!

  Many that have left the JW religion have a lot of anger in them.(Still)

  Unill they can figure out what to do with this anger...they have to bash someone or something..I don't think they know who they are mad at..God, Man or themselves. I think we should be considerate of this anger..It is part of healing!

  And some take longer than others!.

  JMO

  Golden Girl
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  COMF

  Dubla,

  well, i guess it all depends on how you think of that term, "gods laws". sure, you can show me one scripture that refers to "the law", but if youre very familiar with the bible, you know that much more than that is asked of those doing gods will.

  Yes, I agree taht it's all quite contradictory, confusing and misleading to anyone trying to read it as God's instructions to mankind.

  of course, if you dont believe in the bible, its really all pointless anyhow....why would you even care about following "gods laws" if in fact you do not believe he exists?

  You wouldn't. "God's laws" mean no more to you than "Thelonious Monk's laws".

  so are you saying that you might accidentally be following gods law without knowing it?

  Without caring one way or the other, to be more accurate... but, yes.

  what if the speed that seemed right to you was in fact 20 over the limit?

  Then I wouldn't be, would I. What does this have to do with our conversation? According to your contention, it would not be possible for me to be doing the speed limit or less; physics itself would force me up over the speed limit due to my lack of belief.

  how would you know unless you got pulled over?

  Read the speed limit sign, man. But who gives a damn about knowing, anyway? You're apparently not getting the illustration's application to your / JJ's contention that disbelief in God automatically means you are breaking his laws. Picture me out on a scenic drive down a country road, admiring the scenery and in no hurry to get where I'm going. I don't pay any attention to the speed limit, or to the speed I'm going; I just go the speed that feels right to me. That speed happens to be 45 miles per hour. The speed limit for that road happens to be 55. Well, there you are. How do I know whether I'm conforming to the speed limit? Dubla, pay attention: I DON'T CARE. I DON'T WANT TO KNOW. I'M NOT WORRIED ABOUT IT. I'M NOT AFRAID OF WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO ME.

  Now... JJ equated not believing in God with going against God's laws. I said that was not the case, and I am right; it isn't, with the exception of the law that you have to worship him. However, the fact that I don't believe in God doesn't make me a menace to society, a sociopathic killer, tax fraud, rapist, drug addict; doesn't make me crosswise to any of those "God's laws".

  If you disagree, then I'll need you to point out which of God's laws I've broken by not believing in him (other than the obvious requirement to believe).

  COMF
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  dubla

  comf-

  According to your contention, it would not be possible for me to be doing the speed limit or less; physics itself would force me up over the speed limit due to my lack of belief.

  no, that wasnt my contention at all....you are merely attempting to cloud the issue. im fully willing to admit that you could accidentally follow some of gods laws without knowing it, but not all of them can be followed without believing.

  I DON'T CARE. I DON'T WANT TO KNOW. I'M NOT WORRIED ABOUT IT. I'M NOT AFRAID OF WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO ME.

  thats fine, but honestly, when did this become a discussion about your opinions of the bible and gods laws? im glad youre comfortable with your stance of not believing.....im not the type of person (anymore) that would attempt to push my religious views onto you. i respect your beliefs, and everyone elses on this board for that matter.

  I said that was not the case, and I am right; it isn't, with the exception of the law that you have to worship him.

  well, youve successfully declared victory and admitted defeat in the same sentence...congratulations, lol. actually, there are other "laws" that you wouldnt be able to follow without believing (aside from worship, which you already admit is one), such as telling others about god, teaching others about the bible, and of course the simple "law" to believe (which you also pointed out), or have faith...etc.

  However, the fact that I don't believe in God doesn't make me a menace to society, a sociopathic killer, tax fraud, rapist, drug addict;

  it sure doesnt, but thats really irrelevant.

  If you disagree, then I'll need you to point out which of God's laws I've broken by not believing in him (other than the obvious requirement to believe).

  well, ive pointed out a few, several times now, and you yourself have pointed out a couple.....so im a bit confused now. you point out specific "laws" that you cannot possibly follow without believing, and then you ask me to point out specific "laws" that cannot be followed without believing.?.?. hmmm. well, this is how i see it. you started out by making the claim that following gods laws was as simple as having good "morals". i showed that to be nonsense, and pointed out some specific "laws" that have absolutely nothing to do with morals, to which you half agreed, and yet you are still sitting here making your claim about having good morals. look, i have no problem admitting an athiest can have equally good morals when compared to a christian....but thats not the point of this little argument, and never was. youve actually helped me prove my point, so i suppose there isnt much else to say about it.

  aa
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  Tinkerbell4125

  There is no JEHOVAH!

  It's like this.....if the Jehovah Witnesses are a crock, then Jehovah is crock.

  When I pray, it's to my heavenly father, NOT JEHOVAH. If you search the history of the name Jehovah, it's not even pronounced correctly. I KNOW that there is only one heavenly father and in my opinion, my prayer will get through just fine! YES you will find alot of bashing here, all for a good damn reason!