by 4skins 134 Replies latest jw friends
btw, Was, you asked: Can't we relate to each other as people?
A noble concept, but... no. I can truthfully say that, generally speaking, I prefer female company and "relate" to them differently than I do men. I tend to notice the sex of a person on first glance and react accordingly.
I'm working on it, though, only I haven't made much progress over the years.
It is a commonly held viewpoint in my community that many of our women tend to be loud-mouthed and *too* assertive.
Teejay, women in your community didn't always have a choice.
It was these very same women who saw their mothers and graqndmothers as the breadwinners. These women went to work every and then came home and managed the family because of the fact that their men could not find work.
They were assertive because they had no choice, they were loud-mouthed because they learned that this was the ony way they could get their point across.
These personality traits have been passed to this generation of women and we are all the bigger for understanding that.
Dutchie: Very well said, Lady. Bravo.
Teejay:
I'm working on it, though, only I haven't made much progress over the years.
Keep it up, Bro, keep it up.
It took us thousands of years to get where we are. We don't expect miracles overnight. Appreciate the effort, tho.
Side note: ain't the internet grand in some ways? I didn't know Teejay was African-American until he said so. Nice to have a sort of even playing field sometimes, isn't it?
Teejay, I would think you might want to distance yourself from what 4skins has said, maybe I'm wrong and if I am, I'll be the first to apologize. His comments struck me as openly provocative and not at all serious.
As for the "rape fantasy", I think of each woman as a unique individual, as are men. Certain stereotypes may be true, but let's not go there. I would think you, of all people, might be sensitive to that. A little friendly "slap and tickle" in the bedroom certainly does NOT translate into a true desire to be humiliated by a man.
If we met in person, I might make certain preconceptions of you, based on what I saw. If you were unkempt, for example, I might not want to sit next to you on a bus. If I saw a black male approaching me on an empty street, early on a Sunday morning jog, would I cross to the other side? I sincerely hope not. Each of us has to answer for ourselves here.
Go back to the definition of "femininity". It truly does vary depending on our own unique background and baggage. I'm hopeful that eventually, we can continue this evolution towards thinking of each other as individuals, devoid of racial/sexual/political/philosophical stereotypes.
Cheers,
Wasa
Dutchie,
I was willing to let your post of misinformation go unchallenged until Was' post. Now I feel I have no choice but to respond.
Among other things I could point out, you said
Teejay, women in your community didn't always have a choice.For me, it's far from being a new argument. I've heard it many times before. There is one word you used in this short quote that puts everything else you said into complete perspective relative to my comments about some of the women in my community. The word? "Didn't." Now, reread your quote and think of the import of that one word in your quote.
Do you realize that in discussions with BLACK PEOPLE over the years I have heard that the reason ("excuse", really) some Blacks are forever late for appointments is because of slavery? That's right. Slavery. What happened one hundred fifty years ago, they say, affects the way people living now view time. Do you view that, as I do, as one of the stupidest things you have ever heard? I hope so. Still, some people actually believe the absolute truth of it and wear slavery almost like a badge of honor.
My point is, what happened before, while having *some* impact on the present, should not overrule a person's free will. What people (long dead) endured in the past should have little bearing on those living in the present. To do otherwise would be only to stifle personal growth. Why, if I wanted to, I could use events in my own life to mar my perception of people to such an extent that I probably would not be able to carry on a civil conversation with anyone not of my race.
So, while I will never forget what happened to women like my mother and grandmother and great-grandmother back in the old days, if it's okay with you I'd rather not hear about those events and times as the reason why a twenty-something year-old woman is a masculine bitch when she hasn't had a whiff of those problems.
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>> Keep it up, Bro, keep it up.
>> It took us thousands of years to get where we are. We
>> don't expect miracles overnight. Appreciate the effort, tho.
But that's just the thing, Was!
I don't intend to change!! I guess you could say my efforts to relate to all people the same have been... uh... half-hearted.
I rather like my sexism, such as it is. It fits me. After noticing them, something I can't help and don't try to, I normally prefer the company of females, particularly those of the feminine variety... the more feminine the better. Sometimes on my job I might walk into a roomful of women. In that setting--being the only male in the room--I've been asked if I was nervous. Little did they realize how much at home I was! Y'all don't scare me!!
Now, does that mean that I'm not relating to women as people? If so, so be it. It's the way I am and they don't seem to mind.
>> Side note: ain't the internet grand in some ways? I didn't know Teejay was African-
>> American until he said so. Nice to have a sort of even playing field sometimes, isn't it?
It truly is, no question. Here, ideas rule more than anything else, and like my friend Martha would say, it's a good thing.
There seems to be some consensus between researchers that rape is a recurring feature in male/female fantasy.
Hey Moe--is that short for "mustache"? Sure you give a rat's ass about my opinion otherwise you wouldn't bother to post and demonstrate my claim that 'western females have abandoned their femininity'. And that's okay by me--you're borderline ugly and not accountable to me.
And wasasister---it's 8 days after birth, not 8 days after posting here!
I think you females have adequately demonstrated your preference to live mouthy, unfeminine or masculine identities. You must recognize by now that it's a turn-off for many men.
I'll tell you a story. I have a buddy: he's a married guy with kids. He's the sole breadwinner and his wife loves to be a homemaker. His wife is extremely feminine; his two teenage daughters are like their mother--very feminine. When they were in the jaydubs they were the object of much hostility, mainly from the females. I didn't understand that hostility because they were the nicest family, hospitable, sociable, generous and have a great sense of humor. When they went out females,especially ,would crane their necks to gawk at my friend's wife and daughters. Invariably these females had scowls on their faces just like the females in the Hall. Why? The androgynized females were simply exhibiting jealousy or envy toward these very feminine women. Displays of femininity disturbed those androgynized females just like it disturbs you androgyns here.
Now guys, experiment with this. Next time you take your female androgyn out on a date, she replete with tattoos, tee shirt, jeans and maybe chewing tabbacco, watch what happens when a feminine-looking woman enters the room. Your androgyn will quite likely crane her neck around, give the feminine-looking woman the once-over, then grimace. In that brief moment you'll see her envy. All is not lost girls! It is possible to reclaim your lost or abandoned femininity.
Perhaps we should be asking "where are the masculine men?"
Real men don't feel the need to degrade women...ANY women....Real men support, cherish and are confident enough to let women be strong without feeling threatened....
So 4skin perhaps when you become a real man...you will find the women of this board feminine....
To the folks who are obviously trolling:
There is a very large difference between domination and rape. The first is something I do myself, in as gentle a fashion as is needed, and always respecting the woman when it does happen, and is something I've had done to myself by several women and quite enjoyed. But rape is an entirely different kettle of fish - the woman doesn't have a choice. You are hurting a woman when you rape, and anybody who hurts a woman or who I have found out has hurt a woman is going to get a reaction of extreme prejudice from my side.
Interesting subject that is bound to get varied and heated responses. I admire anyone willing to take the fire if they are indeed sincere about the subject.
The fact that American women have chose to reduce their femininity is beyone discussion in my opinion. However, people don't choose something unless there is a benefit. A few years ago I had opportunity and desire to date alot. Being in college at age 30 gave me an ample market to choose from. I found a lot of girls down played their feminity because males invariably took it as a sign of weakness and an invitation as well. It was just too much distraction and hassel.... in other words, little benefit.
On the other hand, I found a lot of women wanted to be more feminine if they felt safe about doing so. After a couple dates and working hard to build up that safety level, I'd lie in wait for that so predictable statement that in whatever form said, "I ain't no push-over-easy-win-girl". It usually took the form of a story how she embarrassed or out manuevered some imposing male figure or some really ballsy statement or fight in a bar....the list was endless.
With a crooked smile I'd usually say something like, "My that is an impressive pair of 10lb. steel balls you have there between your legs". The looks I'd get were always the same, a stare of dis-belief. Before the silence would get too long, I'd follow up with something like, "look you don't have prove to me how tough you are. I already know that. I'm not really particulary interested in having a hot and heavy relationship at this time. Can we just be ourselves and have a good time"?
Almost always I'd see a weight lifted off their shoulders, even if some were a little miffed for calling them on the carpet for their B.S. Once they knew that I wasn't going to be some pushy sort of guy, but was also willing to call B.S. when I saw it, they just became more their natural selves which included a greater dose of feminity.....which was thoroughly appreciated and created many, many fond memories.
People rightly want a measure of control and respect in their lives......give em that and the armor usually gets dropped.
Edited by - Perry on 30 July 2002 10:14:5
Edited by - Perry on 30 July 2002 10:15:23
Edited by - Perry on 30 July 2002 10:15:50
Hey Moe--is that short for "mustache"? Sure you give a rat's ass about my opinion otherwise you wouldn't bother to post and demonstrate my claim that 'western females have abandoned their femininity'. And that's okay by me--you're borderline ugly and not accountable to me.
Oh, I am borderline ugly now? LMFAO, but my mommy always said i was pretty, maybe ur just jealous... LMFAO tho i do recall a short while back you were about to enter me into a beauty contest.
Guess what Foreskin, you are a prick and i am better looking than u so THERE
LMFAO
Moe
