Reparations & Protest

by Larry 64 Replies latest jw friends

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek
    But the ugly fact of the matter is, we were striped of our heritage, ancestry, identity, etc so we would not know how to function in Africa. We are a people without a homeland to call our own. We have to assimilate to survive in the US at the expense of losing our ancestral heritage.

    Other groups manage it. The descendants of Irish people who were forced to emigrate during the potato famine manage to function in American society and still hold on to their culture. (As far as I know, they are not looking for reparations from the British government.) What ancestral heritage do you want to hold on to, that you would be forced to give up if you did not receive this unearned money?

  • jst_me
    jst_me

    Oh bullsh*t!!!!!

    Iis so easy to say that you are not affected, because you are able to reap the benefits of being white without even realizing.

    It is quite a funny thing that there are so many more people of color incarcerated, ever stopped to ask yourself why? They cant afford lawyers, they are pulled over more often, they dont get the put on the back and let off as easy BECAUSE of the color of their skin? Have you ever looked at the penalities for drug possession, and compared them to, I dunno, rich fat bastards running off with peoples retirements? I bet you have never been followed when you shopped at the mall for baby clothes, or told that you would have polka-dotted babies if you have a mixed baby. (I have!)

    So what if your people did not get here until after slavery, you still benefit from the good ole boy's club because of your color. The fact that you cannot even acknowledge that there is privelege based on color in this country proves how well entrenched it is.

    There are far more whites on welfare rolls than people of color, look it up on any statistical site. I personally believe it is a class issue as well, if you do not live in a good neighborhood (which up until the late 60s blacks could not!) you go to sub-standard schools, you go to sub-standard colleges (if at all). There are plenty of people who work 50 and 60 hours a week and still cannot make ends meet. Not just blacks, whites too. That is just messed up. It has nothing to do with wanting to work.

    If you ever have a chance to go and listen to any of the current African American leadership IN PERSON....without the filter of the press....I urge you to go. You may be amazed at what you hear, it is not the same thing you hear on the news.

    It is time to tell the ugly history of America...and yeah yall have to listen and realize it really happened, and that it STILL affects Americans today.

  • DakotaRed
    DakotaRed

    Personally, I would like to see this us versus them attitude go away. It's tim e we realized that although we all have blights in our history, it is still history. We are equal and should be treated accordingly. The only thing that should matter in our advancement in society is our idividual ability and drive, nothing else.

    Will I live to see it? I certainly hope so, but with constant reminders and the ongoing us versus them attitudes, I sincerely doubt it.

    Lew W

  • Larry
    Larry

    Hey folks where's the love :) I'm not the enemy. Although it just shows some things never change. Everytime a 'Black' person stands up for a cause, folks want to shoot 'em down, put 'em in their place. It's cool, folks said the same thing during the 50's and 60's. It wasn't until recently that folks said "yeah, they had a point back then."

    Granted the Black and White issue is a smoke screen, it's just a divide and conquer tacit by the folks at the top of the power chain. The sooner we realize we have more in common the better. But in order to do that, we have to first come to gripes with the history of our nation and we have to have equal rights. No Justice - No Peace!

    If you guys want to believe you proved a point, so be it - you got it. Let's not lose focus as to the point of this board. We have good momentum so let's use our energy towards that cause.

    This is my last comment on this issue - Nothing but love for ya - LL

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek
    It is quite a funny thing that there are so many more people of color incarcerated, ever stopped to ask yourself why? They cant afford lawyers, they are pulled over more often, they dont get the put on the back and let off as easy BECAUSE of the color of their skin?

    Not at all because they're committing more crimes? Which is possibly because there's more of them living in poverty, due to the huge percentage of single-parent black families. How is it the fault of "the white man" that black men keep fathering children and not taking responsibility for them, or is that part of the "ancestral heritage" Larry wants to protect?

    So what if your people did not get here until after slavery, you still benefit from the good ole boy's club because of your color. The fact that you cannot even acknowledge that there is privelege based on color in this country proves how well entrenched it is.

    So all white people are to blame for all your problems, real or imagined?

    There are far more whites on welfare rolls than people of color, look it up on any statistical site. I personally believe it is a class issue as well, if you do not live in a good neighborhood (which up until the late 60s blacks could not!) you go to sub-standard schools, you go to sub-standard colleges (if at all). There are plenty of people who work 50 and 60 hours a week and still cannot make ends meet. Not just blacks, whites too. That is just messed up. It has nothing to do with wanting to work.

    So shouldn't these white people get reaparations too?

    Imagine this scenario: A white woman has sex with a black man and becomes pregnant. The father disappears, never to be heard from again. She has the child, who is obviously of mixed-race, a "person of color". Shortly afterwards she gets pregnant again, this time by a white man, who also skips town. She brings up both her children together. They have exactly the same economic and social background. Do you honestly believe one of them should be singled out to receive "reparations" or get a job to fill some quota, above his brother? How could that possibly be fair?

  • MikeMusto
    MikeMusto

    I never liked Sammy Davis Jr.

  • LDH
    LDH

    Y'all crack me up on this issue.

    Funky says:

    The descendants of Irish people who were forced to emigrate during the potato famine manage to function in American society and still hold on to their culture

    Two points.

    1. The potato famine was a natural disaster. People did what they had to do to survive. They came to America by choice. They could have just as easily gone to France. Slavery/genocide was not a natural disaster. No slave came here by choice. It was a system of institutionalized oppression that was sanctioned by the American government of that time.

    2. Of course, the very fact that their descendents know that they're Irish indicates to me that they have been successful in keeping their culture. Of all the blacks you know in America, how many know what part of Africa their families came from? Your argument assumes that all blacks in Africa live the same way, are the same people. Frankly, it's disrespectful.

    I do not agree that the American citizens NOW should be taxed for something they were not responsible for.

    HOWEVER, the families who were made millionaires off of crops like tobacco, cotton, etc are mostly still millionaires and some even billionaires. The same thing, Derek, For that asshole Andrew Carnegie who didn't care how many people he killed to get his railroad built. Do you have any idea how much the Carnegie Foundation, and all of his grandchildren are worth today???? I didn't think so.

    Let me tell you a little something about the fucking Carnegie Foundation, Derek. Let me take ya to school. Do you know who sits on the board of the Carnegie Foundation? The grandchildren and great grandchildren of that tyrant Andrew Carnegie. Now, on the surface, the purpose of the Carnegie Foundation is to provide Funding to research for teaching.etc. So it sounds like a good thing. until you understand that not one dollar of the principal has been paid out, those bastards are merely donating the interest while sitting on the capital to continue to enrich themselves. As long as there is a Carenegie Foundation, there his kids sit making millions for "Administering the Fund." They don't even fund grants. They use the billions of dollars to "fund their own research."

    Don't believe me? http://www.carnegiefoundation.org

    Are you really trying to convince me that the children of the man who murdered people to build his railroad should still continue to benefit from it?

    Because the bottom line is, the privileged rich gave birth to people who are STILL the privileged rich today, and NONE OF YOU will ever live like that, and yet here you sit defending them as though you are one.

    LOL, when is the last time any of YOU got inside information before your stocks tanked? Tell my why *OUR* retirement portfolio tanked to the tune of $80,000 last year while corporate CEOS of companies like Enron, MCI and AOL made BILLIONS.

    It's because it never was about Black vs. White. It's about the Haves vs. the Have nots.

    Therefore, tell me why we don't strip the families of those who were unjustly enriched, and redistribute those funds to the descendents of families whose backs were whipped and broken to create it.

    Lisa

  • LDH
    LDH

    As a matter of fact, all of that money should be stripped from all of those families to provide adequate child care for the single mothers and fathers who now work thanks to the "Welfare to Work" initiative....and woulnd not have to leave their child locked in the car, where they die.

    I think there's been something like 11 children this year who died because mom had nowhere to leave them and locked them in her car at work, thinking they would be safe.

    IMHO.

    Lisa

  • ScarabKing
    ScarabKing

    http://wwwvms.utexas.edu/~jdana/iphunger.html

    THE GREAT STARVATION
    AND BRITISH IMPERIALISM IN IRELAND

    by Seamus Metress
    University of Toledo

    from The Irish People
    Jan. 10, 1996

    In recent months there has been a great deal of discussion about what to call the tragedy that accompanied the failure of the potato crop in Ireland between 1845-50. Our nomenclature today can be an important part of educating the public about what really happened during those awful years. In this context let us consider the nature of what I would prefer to call the "Great Starvation".

    One hundred fifty years ago in the late summer of 1845 one of the greatest human ecological disasters in the history of the world began in Ireland. A fungus from North America established itself in Ireland and commenced to destroy the potato crop. When the fungus had run its course at least 1 1/1 million, possibly as many as 2 million, Irish had died and another 1 1/2 million had emigrated. No one can fully capture in words the magnitude or the intensity of the suffering and hardship endured by the Irish people from 1845-1850.

    The potato failure of the mid to late 1840's has been variably referred to as "The Great Hunger","The Great Famine" and "The Great Starvation." One's choice of words to describe this colossal human tragedy is often determined by political ideology or personal agenda. Irish landowners referred to the time period as that of "The Great Hunger." Most of these landowners were absentee and did not experience first hand the ravages of the potato blight. They, unlike their tenants, were not dependent on the potato for their survival. While potatoes rotted in the fields, landowners continued to eat a varied diet.

    The British call it "The Great Famine." The scarcity of food was blamed on the weather, the potato fungus and, perhaps, most of all on the Malthusian notion of overpopulation. The Irish had overbred and there wasn't enough food to feed them all given the crop failure. However, as Frank O'Connor once observed, "Famine is a useful word when you do not wish to use words like 'genocide' and 'extermination.'"

    These latter terms are philosophically embodied in "The Great Starvation," which is a more realistic way to refer to the time period when Irish peasants starved in the midst of plenty, Wheat, oats, barley, butter, eggs, beef and pork were exported from Ireland in large quantities during the so-called "famine." In fact, eight ships left Ireland daily carrying these many foodstuffs. Starvation among the peasants is blamed on a colonial system that made them dependent on the potato in the first place. Racist insensitivity toward the plight of the starving masses also played a major role in the death and large-scale emigration which marked this time. The British failed to take swift and comprehensive action in the force of Ireland's disaster.

    In 1861 in The Last Conquest of Ireland, John Mitchel wrote: "The Almighty indeed sent the potato blight but the English created the famine," Mitchell further observed that "a million and half men, women and children were carefully, prudently and peacefully slain by the English government. The died of hunger in the midst of abundance which their own hands created."

    Such sentiment expressed by an Irishman who witnessed the horrors inflicted upon his countrymen will always linger, refuting revisionist attempts to obscure reality.

    In recent years there has been an effort among Tory revisionists to soften the trauma of the period and downplay the role of the British. This is especially evident in the tendency to reduce the estimates of the number of deaths related to the starvation. Most of these apologists have suggested there were much less than a million deaths, while some estimates go as low as 250,000. Even these incorrect estimates are appalling given that they occurred only a short distance from the heart of the most powerful and wealthy empire the world has ever known. We suppose that such an approach is an attempt to lessen the blame that should be placed upon the British or insome sense to veil the magnitude of the tragedy.

    These same apologist feel that there was nothing that any government could have done to ameliorate the situation. The poor British tried, but were simply overwhelmed by the logistics of the operation. In their view the starvation was the inevitable outcome of demography and the prevalent economic theory of the day.

    It would appear that one of the major purposes of Irish revisionism is to undermine the basis of Irish nationalism and leave Ireland without heroes or historical memory. It also plays down the British responsibility for the catastrophic aspects of the Irish experience. Though they alternately whimper or crow about their quest for detached truth, Anglo-Irish revisionists attempt to present sociopolitical propaganda under the guise of scholarly writing. They choose to forget that British rule in Ireland was guided by the rope and the bayonet.

    British apologists would do well to ponder the words of the great British writer William Makepiece Thackeray who characterized British colonialism in Ireland as follows: "...It is a frigthful document against ourselves...one of the most melancholy stories in the whole world of insolence, rapine, brutal, endless slaughter and persecution on the part of the English master,...There is no crime ever invented by eastern or western barbarians, no torture or Roman persecution or Spanish Inquisition, no tyranny of Nero or Alva but can be matched in the history of England in Ireland."

    It is time for us to stop using the euphemism "Irish potato famine" for two reasons. First, it is wrong because there was no shortage of food in Ireland. Secondly, it was not simply an "Irish famine" but a starvation based on systematic British exploitation of the Irish people, inaction in the face of the potato crop failure, and a vindictive, racist attitude toward the Irish.

    The events of 1845-1850 were truly a holocaust. Indeed in 1904 Michael Davitt, the founder of the Irish Land League called it a holocaust. It is not something for the Irish and Irish Americans to forget. Why is it that we are told to stop living in the past or that we have too long a memory? Would anyone ask Jews to forget the Nazi atrocities against their people? Should Native Americans forget the massacres at Sand Creek and Wounded Knee? Would we suggest that African Americans forget the horrors of the middle passage? How can we learn from the past if we are ignorant of its successes, failures, an abominations?

    In the words of the Irish patriot labor leader James Connolly, "The English administration of Ireland during the famine was a colossal crime against the human race." We should not forget our holocaust orchestrated by English imperialists and we should not let the world forget. In August 1989, during an address on Grosse Ile, Canada, Dr. Edward J. Brennan, Ireland's ambassador to Canada, noted: "The Great Famine was Ireland's holocaust (which) condemned the Irish to be the first boat people of modern Europe."

    None of us can truly understand the nature of their privations, but we all can take this opportunity to pay tribute to the memory of those who died and the courage of those who survived. May their ghosts know that we still care. Let us not dare to forget the terrible death and suffering that occurred between 1845 and 1850. In fact we should indelibly fix it in our personal and collective memory for we are our ancestors.

    Edited by - scarabking on 16 August 2002 18:13:46

  • Crazy151drinker
    Crazy151drinker

    Because the bottom line is, the privileged rich gave birth to people who are STILL the privileged rich today, and NONE OF YOU will ever live like that, and yet here you sit defending them as though you are one.

    Sorry, but this is wrong. We live in a capitalisitic society where if you bust your ass and have an ounce of creativity you can do anything. Bill gates anyone??? Steve Jobs??? They were not rich people, just people who had a good idea and took a huge risk. Also, are you familiar with Liberia??? Check it out. Africa is fucked. The rulers dont give a rats ass about there people. And if you want to bitch about how minorities have it bad, go to Angola or any other country in Africa and see how REALLY BAD it is. And if you want to bitch about how unfair minorities have it, I will once again refer you to the Native Americans who not only lost their culture, but they lost their land, and 98% lost there LIVES. When I see people going to the UN to protest the Countries in AFRICA that STILL pratice SLAVERY instead of trying to get some $$$$ then I will have a little more respect for them. And as far as the White Good Old Boy advantage, its overrated! My Family has what it has becuase my Parents busted their ass and worked. You want advantages?? How many scholorships could I apply for???? Would I get fair treatment at a UC school?? F-NO! You want to talk about Quotas?? Its a 2 sided street. Maybe you live in some backwoods of Alamabama but here in California things are different. Yes, the fairness of things where out of whack for a long time but they are obviously getting better. If you want to complain about minorities going to prison, stop complaining about the lack of good representation and focus on the fact that they would be on trial if they hadnt commited a crime in the first place! If you think the IRISH or any other immigrants didnt get the shit jobs or have to put up with alot of racial bullshit then you need to read a history book.

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