In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??

by jst2laws 102 Replies latest jw friends

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  aChristian

  Jst2,

  You seem to believe that "reforming" the Watchtower organization in some significant way is possible. Or maybe you just believe that preserving it as it is would in some way be beneficial. I am of the opinion that neither of these things is true.

  I believe Christ described this situation perfectly in his parable of the "wineskins." In it he said, "No one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine will burst the skins, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, new wine must be poured into new wineskins." (Luke 5:37,38)

  We know that Christ's parable was told in response to complaints that his disciples believed and behaved differently than "John's disciples," "the Pharisees," and "the teachers of the law." (Luke 7:30, 33) We also know that "new wine" produces gases which exert pressure on its container as it ferments. That is why in ancient times "new wine" was always put into "new wineskins" which were soft and flexible enough to change shape a bit as the "new wine" fermented, without coming apart at the seams.

  With these things in mind, the meaning of Christ's parable seems quite clear. Jesus was saying that quite often the false teachings and man-made traditions of a religious organization are so much a part of that organization that they make it spiritually inflexible, and thus incapable of any significant change. Christ's parable indicated that, for that reason, Christ knew that none of the religious institutions which then existed were capable of the major changes which would be necessary for them to serve the spiritual needs of his disciples. For those religious organizations had become so filled with false teachings and non-scriptural traditions of men that those false teachings and man-made traditions then formed what amounted to the entire fabric of those organizations.

  Thus, if Christ had told his disciples to stay in those organizations in an attempt make them into Christian organizations, their doing so would not have reformed those organizations it would have destroyed them. For, like old hardened wineskins, Christ knew that religious organizations which are almost entirely filled with false teachings and man-made traditions are incapable of any significant growth or change. And he knew that, like old hardened wineskins, any pressure exerted on them in an attempt to change them can, at best, only succeed in bringing about their destruction.

  That being the case, since Jesus knew that the largely corrupt religious institutions of his day could not be put to good use by his followers, why do you seem to believe that the Watchtower Society can be?
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  normie67

  I thought preaching about Living Forever on a Paradise Earth was Good News!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  normie
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  normie67

  Tina
  What about the Congregations that we find in the Greek scriptures i.e. Ephesus, Corinth, Galatia.etc., that Paul wrote Letters to!!!There was Governing Body(Circumcision Issue) and also in Revelation mentions the Congs by name????
  Thats my thought Tina.

  normie
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  MDS

  Hi J2L:

  But the first 15 years of the Christian Congregation also had problems of bigotry, and false teachings. The attempt to resolve them in 49 CE resulted in some good but the Judaizers still subverted the faith of many for years after. It only got worse until less than a century and the congregation was corrupted. But it was still the congregation God used to spread the Good News.

  I think the "bigotry" you refer to did get "corrected" real fast, if we are talking about what Peter did. -- Galatians 2:11-14

  As you have noticed, Paul said that Peter, because of his actions, "stood as a man condemned." -- Galatians 2:11

  So, it looks like the problem was handled, and corrected quickly. This is because Jesus truly was the head of the congregation, and Jesus tolerates no wickedness of any kind within the congregation, for any serious length of time.

  Case in point...Jezebel of the "Thyatira congregation." Jesus was incensed that the "star" of that congregation "tolerated" her too long. She was to be "tolerated" only if this led to her "repentance." Still, Jesus said he would take action to "correct" the problem, and "throw her into a sick bed," and "kill off her children with deadly plague." This was to be done even if the "star" did not take action. Jesus would take action. -- Rev. 2:20-23

  So how could you or any Jehovah's Witness say or even insinuate 1st century christians would or could even tolerate wickedness, comparable to the level of WICKEDNESS we clearly see practiced within the walls of the Kingdom Halls and Bethel Headquarters today!

  As for the comment about 1st century christians teaching "false teachings" ... I do not think you can prove this, scripturally.

  Matthew 16:12 shows us that "false teachings" in the eyes of God and Jesus, are viewed as "leaven."

  Galatians 5:9 shows that a "little leaven ferments the whole lump."

  The first century congregation was "clean" from spiritual contamination, during the lifetime of the apostles.

  In 2 Peter 1:16 Peter says:

  "No, it was not by FOLLOWING ARTFULLY CONTRIVED FALSE STORIES that we acquainted you with the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, but it was by having become eyewitnesses of his magnificence."

  First we must ask ourselves, do we truly believe the above words of Peter...do we?

  If we do...then...it is clear, the first century christians did not teach anything COMPARABLE, on the sunken level of, yes, the false date of 1914...a teaching that has lasted with the WTS some 120 years!

  A detestable thing in God's eyes..."anyone LIKING or CARRYING ON a lie"...a false doctrine or teaching. -- Rev. 22:15

  How could they enter the clean "heavens", or resting place of God Almighty, and Jesus...having practiced and contaminated the ENTIRE CONGREGATION with "lying" or "false teachings?" -- Matthew 15:8,9; Revelation 21:8; 22;15

  "Lying" and "false teachings," is the clear activity of the Devil! -- John 8:44

  There are SO MANY references in the Christian Greek Scriptures about christians obtaining, the "truth," yes, "accurate knowledge," the importance of it, "in order to walk worthily of Jehovah." -- Colossians 1:9, 10

  So, how could the first century congregation have allowed "false teachings" infiltrate the congregation as a whole, for over 100 years, as has been the case of the WTS and 1914, and still expect to GO TO HEAVEN!

  As you know, the date of 1914 and teaching of 1914 has been with the Watch Tower Society for over 120 years, is this not a fact?

  So, if this teaching is "false," incorrect, wrong...then based upon what Peter said above, Jehovah's Witnesses are by them selves in this wrong doing...the first century christians did not do such a thing at all. They cannot be charged with such a heinous sin...for over 120 years!

  But, the question remains...Has indeed, yes the Watch Tower Society used an "artfully contrived FALSE story," ....namely 1914, used this teaching and gained followers from all over the WORLD, from this FALSE TEACHING? You must research this and find out personally for yourself.

  Then, if you believe what Peter said above, then you WOULD NOT SAY, the first century christians were as guilty as modern-day Jehovah's Witnesses about what they have taught for over 120 years...would you? -- See Matthew 15:8,9.

  MDS

  Edited by - MDS on 24 March 2001 16:47:32
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  normie67

  MDS
  The 1914 date is arguable, GTR, COC and etc. But honestly what othe rDate was as important as 1914...ie WW1 many point to 1914 as turning point in human history!!

  normie
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  Pathofthorns

  J2L,

  It's only a matter of time before you accept the simplest answer that you already know but refuse to come to grips with.

  It happened to most of us here. Most of us here wanted it to be true, for there to be "enough good in it" to justify staying. But sooner or later, it all clicks during that painful moment when you realize that there was never a point that God was directing this organization and because of that fact, there's no reason to believe he does at present.

  The present day problems and even your own comments about arrogant leadership point to only one simple and obvious conclusion. Whatever good you find in the religion you can take along with you, but the fact is, that this is an all or nothing religion and you can't pick or choose what you'd like to accept.

  Your own comments basically disagreeing with the leadership destroy the whole foundation of what the religion is based on. Sure there are good things in the religion, but the same can be said of all religions. Everything good in this religion crumbles when it can't live up to it's own claims.

  All religion starts out with the best of intentions, but over time, everything organized becomes corrupted. I think this was the simple lesson Jesus was showing.

  Your knowledge of your own history is flawed. Page 191 of the Proclaimer's book shows they weren't neutral and many went to war during WWI. The July 8, 1998 Awake pg 10-14 discusses the 1933 Declaration which is full of anti-semetic comments by Rutherford to Hitler. Actually a thorough examination of our history with our own publications reveals it's not what we imagined it to be.

  If you chose to stay, you will have to somehow find a way of harmonizing the history and the past with it's own claims and condemnations of other religions. When that becomes imposible you just have to lie to yourself.

  But i don't think you will stay. You've admitted too much and if you only listen to yourself, you will realize you no longer believe in it. This is the most painful time and when you finally consider and accept the facts you will feel better. The uncertainty is not as bad as you've been led to believe and the fear you have goes away.

  Everyone here has never felt better.

  Path
• 

  Tina

  Normie,
  The congrgations mentioned were groups of people who met in homes.
  LDH clarified that nowhere in the bible is there a command to create an organization. There is no command to create a governing body and a heirarchy that exists today among JW's. Please show me where jesus required field service slips and counting time? The wts has taken the concept of congregation and abused and exploited it to serve their purposes and their interpretation. The wheat and weeds parable is not talking about an organization,,,,,,my thoughts,Tina
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  normie67

  Tina
  Sorry Jesus didn't mention Time Slips or counting time! It is a way of tracking the Worldwide Work!! I know I know some use this as a measuring stickof what you do in the Org!! IMHO the Parable of The Wheat and The Weeds is a good Illustration of the things are going Today!!
  Sorry Tina

  normie
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  jst2laws

  Achristian,
  I love the scriptural arguments. If a solution is to be found in line with the scriptures, scriptural principles and precedents must be allowed to guide.

  This has been a very Christian discussion of important issues from differing perspective. I thank you all for the kind input.
  Jst2laws

  Edited by - jst2laws on 24 March 2001 18:16:49

  Edited by - jst2laws on 24 March 2001 18:25:39
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  MDS

  Hi Normie67:

  The 1914 date is arguable, GTR, COC and etc. But honestly what othe rDate was as important as 1914...ie WW1 many point to 1914 as turning point in human history!!

  Here is a simple way to solve the problem, resolve the situation.

  Matthew 28:18 says,

  "And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: "ALL AUTHORITY has been given me IN HEAVEN and ON THE EARTH."

  Also, Revelation 3:21

  "To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on His Throne."

  Jesus had already "conquered," as he said. Also, Jesus had to be "enthroned" in the heaven, since he is found "sitting upon God's throne."

  How can one "sit upon God's throne," and not be himself "enthroned?" Why would Jehovah God let someone "sit upon His Throne," if they were not ruling?

  Truly, Jesus was "enthroned" in the first century. Jesus was "declared a Son of God" after his resurrection. -- Romans 1:4
  
  Jesus has nothing else to prove. He is "declared a Son of God" forever, a proven and tested, "Son of God."

  If Jesus had "conquered" in the first century, as he said he had in the above verse, then...how could he be the CONQUERING "rider" of the "white horse," of Revelation 6:2, who "receives a crown [Greek: stephenos...not "diadem"]?"

  Jesus had already "conquered"...completely in the first century.

  So we must ask, actually, in 1914, what was left to give Jesus, that he did not ALREADY HAVE GIVEN HIM in the first century?

  Clearly, Revelation 6:2 does not apply to Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ has been ruling in the heavens since the first century, when "all authority in heaven and on earth" was given him.

  MDS