In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??

by jst2laws 102 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  jst2laws

  Dear Promqueennot,
  They have caused harm. I’m not going to defend them in these matter. People have died needlessly. And these are area that they had no business regulating. Please understand I am not here to defend an organization. Only that an association of brothers have been attracted here by an assortment of teachings almost unique. They were borrowed from others but accumulated among these people to an extent that drew us all at one time to an “organization” that soon turned bad like all organizations run by men. (Do not put your trust in nobles, Psalms 146:3) But God is not stupid. He knows this better than we do. He uses flawed associations anyway.

  As to your comments on blood, you are right. Who are they to decide? They are back pedaling now, but it is too late for many. I hope you are not one who suffered loss do to this policy. If so, my heart goes out to you.

  Your thoughts on perfectionism touch on a subject I want to talk about later. This is a terribly dangerous topic with possibly more casualties that any other issue.

  Keep an open mind. I guess the biggest issue I’m concerned with- is bitterness of having been hurt causing us to reject the lock, stock and barrel. I will try to explain this latter, Monica. Meanwhile fight bitterness. Its not good for you.
  Jst2laws
• 

  Farkel

  : Keep an open mind. I guess the biggest issue I’m concerned with- is bitterness of having been hurt causing us to reject the lock, stock and barrel. I will try to explain this latter, Monica. Meanwhile fight bitterness. Its not good for you.

  Unfortunately, "bitterness" is a common JW expression towards those who ex-JW opponents who present arguments they cannot answer. I have many times quietly presented sincere, non-threatening logical, Biblical arguments in the most respectful manner. When my JW oppoenent realizes s/he doesn't stand a chance against rational evidence, s/he invariably comes back with either:

  1) "You're just 'bitter,' that's all
  or,
  2) "Where else can you go?"

  The first is an ad hominem, and the second is a red-herring, both logical fallacies; but in dub-think, they seem like perfectly rational rebuttals. In any case, they do NOT address arguments put forward. Being an ex-JW (like most ex-JWs) I'm in a position to both understand JW thinking AND understand rational thinking. There IS a difference, and it saddens me to see JWs sincerely pull out the old "you're just bitter" cliche when they cannot address the issues. They are attacking the person and the motives of the person, and totally ignoring the arguments. It saddens me because I did the very same thing, and I thought I was making sense. In reality, I was just trying to beat up the messenger, and ignore the actual message.

  Farkel
• 

  jst2laws

  Iching,
  You said this "very organisation whose "truths" "achievments" and "accomplishments" you are investing so much effort in defending - will have you out on the street - on your ass - DF'd"

  I cannot speak for Normie, but I am not 'defending an organization'.
  I am supporting an ideal and a people who I believe sincerely seeking God on a level far above their previous affiliation. As you can tell from my previous post, I admit nearly every flaw and atrocity pointed out, even have been a victim of some of them. But with all the cautionary and accusatory remarks from others, few have acknowledged the good they have gained from association with Jehovah's Witnesses.
  You do however make a good point. I do not expect anyone here will treat me as harshly upon exposure as the leader of my people.
  jst2laws

  Edited by - jst2laws on 24 March 2001 22:50:39
• 

  MDS

  Hi Normie67 & Jst2Laws:

  I just wanted to say there are several of us on board here that believe as you do, that Jehovah's Witnesses do possess a "basic knowledge of truth," a core of "truth," a "framework of truth," that identifies them as God's People, God's Name people. This same "framework of knowledge of truth," also possessed by the ancient nation of Israel, when Jesus arrived. But it was not enough to be fully pleasing to Jehovah God. (Col. 1:9,10) Nevertheless, we believe as you do, yes, they are a "people for God's Name." -- See Daniel 9:19; Romans 2:20

  As you have openly acknowledged, there are serious concerns and problems with the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses and their leadership in the hands of the Watch Tower Society and its Governing Body. I think you both can see this.

  So, what is the solution?

  The Bible...Bible prophecy...

  1) Isaiah 30:26 shows that Jehovah God is going to "discipline" the organization, for a host of bad practices.

  2) Jeremiah 23:19,20 & Zephaniah 3:11-13 shows a "remnant" from the organization will "understand" and will be "humbled" after what has happened, that is, AFTER the discipline has been administered...some "42 months of trampling" by the political nations of the earth. That's 3 1/2 years or 42 months -- so called the "Gentile Times" in the King James Version, at Luke 21:24. -- Please see Daniel 7:25; 12:7; Revelation 11:2; 13:5.

  3) Micah 4:6,7 shows the nation will be built up, after the God-inflicted discipline, to greater heights than ever before...a "mighty nation," with God's blessings.

  This is what lies ahead for "Jehovah's Witnesses" as a nation...God's Name People.

  Take Care,

  MDS
• 

  jst2laws

  Mds
  I am so impressed. I was not feeling what you expressed till now. And you used scriptural support for your points. I feel a brotherhood. I hope to find more we can agree on in the future.
  jst2laws
• 

  Farkel

  : But with all the cautionary and accusatory remarks from others, few have acknowledged the good they have gained from association with Jehovah's Witnesses.

  Unfortunately, the same reasoning can be applied to Adolf Hitler: he took the Germans out of their worst depression ever, put them on the Gold Standard, brought their economy up to first-class standards, gave them all jobs and after a devasting WWI an aweseome sense of worth and national pride. All in just two decades, and after their country was treated like pond scum by the victorious Allied armies. He united, fed, clothed an entire nation and rebuilt the ruins of their cities in a incredibly small amount of time.

  I'm not trying to compare the WTS with Adolf Hitler point-by-point, but I am pointing out that some good deeds done by any organization must be weighed against the bad deeds also done. The WTS is sorely lacking in the balance. Surely you must realize that. What modern religion callously has sacrificed human lives over blood (because of being afraid of their OWN legal liability), marriages and families willy-nilly over weak arguments regarding blood, permitted types of sex in marriage with consenting spouses, alternative military service, organ transplants, vaccinations and de-facto shunning for merely being caught smoking. The WTS has sacrificed entire family relationships by Dfing a family member for smoking. In WatchtowerLand(tm) the treatment and DFing for being caught smoking and for being a child-rapist or serial killer (and being unrepentant) is exactly the same.

  Do you argue that with these reprehensible practices, the WTS should be vigorously defended for whatever "good" it has accomplished? If you do, then Adolf Hitler must be given the same treatment.

  I've noticed you don't respond to my comments. Do you think I'm a jerk or something? Don't think my arguments make sense? If not, why not. If so, why won't you address what I've written?

  Farkel
  Sledge-Hammer Class
• 

  Farkel

  : So, what is the solution?

  : The Bible...Bible prophecy...

  : 1) Isaiah 30:26 shows that Jehovah God is going to "discipline" the organization, for a host of bad practices.

  : 2) Jeremiah 23:19,20 & Zephaniah 3:11-13 shows a "remnant" from the organization will "understand" and will be "humbled" after what has happened, that is, AFTER the discipline has been administered...some "42 months of trampling" by the political nations of the earth. That's 3 1/2 years or 42 months -- so called the "Gentile Times" in the King James Version, at Luke 21:24. -- Please see Daniel 7:25; 12:7; Revelation 11:2; 13:5.

  : 3) Micah 4:6,7 shows the nation will be built up, after the God-inflicted discipline, to greater heights than ever before...a "mighty nation," with God's blessings.

  Rubbish. You're talking like Fred Franz. Those were ancient people and if any of those "prophecies" happened they had their fulfillment thousands of years ago. Show how ANY of those references have any other than a local fulfillment millenia ago. Be sure to cite the entire context and not a few verses here-and-there. That's an old WT trick.

  I'm curious with how many Bible references you can come up with that make it clear that ancient prophecies had "minor" and "major" fulfillments. Care to enlighten me and us?

  Farkel
• 

  MDS

  Hello Jst2Laws:

  Mds...I am so impressed. I was not feeling what you expressed till now. And you used scriptural support for your points. I feel a brotherhood. I hope to find more we can agree on in the future...jst2laws

  Wonderful...I feel the same "brotherhood" for you too!

  I felt compelled to post because of it.

  There is flood of information we have posted on this very same subject...most of it under the "Bible Research Forum."

  Posts made by myself, "MDS," and select posts made by "Jr.," "Logical," and "BJC2012" all cover loads of information on the subject, mostly on the "Bible Research forum."

  Also, in the "Main" Forum and "Bible Research" archives in the past months gone by, back during the summer of 2000, there are posts by "Bittertruth," and "OneTrueSource," which also cover many topics and points of interest that relate to this current dilemma for all contrite Jehovah's Witnesses, who are searching for real "truth" and scriptural answers to these issues.

  If you need any help finding these posts...my friend, "Logical," can help you find pretty much anything you are looking for. I am sure he will be glad to assist. He is usually in the Chat Room, and easy to find.

  Of course, as you know, there are many, many opposers...opposers to Bible "Truth," as there were doing Paul's day...they are plentiful here too...so brace yourself. -- 1 Corinthians 16:9

  And also, I have your e-mail address too...I'll be in touch...

  Well, that's all for now...

  Take Care...Brother

  MDS

  Edited by - MDS on 24 March 2001 23:30:42
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  jst2laws

  Farkel,
  I’m sorry, but I admit I have not responded to your posts. I will give you one example why.
  In your last post you said “I'm not trying to compare the WTS with Adolf Hitler point-by-point, but I am pointing out that some good deeds done by any organization must be weighed against the bad deeds also done.”
  If the WTBTS were to be compared to the Pharisees of Jesus time we could at best call them as he did,
  ‘blind guides, hypocrites’. They as a group were Jesus’ greatest enemies. Jesus knew many of the Pharisees were not evil people but mislead themselves. Some spoke up for Jesus before and after his death. Paul came out from them only after killing Christians and seeing direct intervention by Jesus. This all happened among God’s chosen people of the time.
  I could understand your comparing WTBTS leadership to the Pharisees, an extreme controlling faction among God’s people, and acknowledging this may be another flawed system God will either fix or replace.
  But any comparison to Hitler is too much. I was there at Bethel and know many of these guys. The motives are very different. True Hitler may have started out with a good motive too. But these guys inherited a flawed system. Even Ray, who should be more angry than anyone, is not filled with the ‘bitterness’ you condemn me for mentioning.
  Harm is harm and someone will pay. Luke 12, from which the original discussion of the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ comes speaks of 2 slaves who are harmful, serving in the same household as the ‘faithful slave’. Should we not accept harmful leadership without looking for a link to Hitler. I can. Yet I’m still on the inside taking a ‘beating’.
  Jst2laws
• 

  Undecided

  Hi J2,

  I think all religions are flawed who try to use the bible for truth. The bible is flawed, due to the fact it can't be understood consistently by any group of Christians. To accept what it says without some explaination to cover the inconsistances, you would be continually contradicting yourself. God is totally a different character in the Hebrew scriptures than as protrayed by Christ. When a bible writer says soon, how do you understand it, as years, decades, centures, millenniums or what?(Just one example)

  I think we must use our own imagination as to what God is really up to.

  That's my two cents worth.(And that's about what it's worth)

  Ken P.