In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??

by jst2laws 102 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  larc

  Brother Farkel,

  Let me save you a little time. When you go to MDS's threads you are going to find a long list of scriptures, with an opinion here and there - very tedious reading. I read it all, took notes and summarized it after one of MDS's posts. This is from memory, so I am sure that MDS will correct me if I err. MDS believes that the JWs are the "spiritual Israel" MDS was disfellowshipped in 1991 and that began an important seven year period. How it ended in 1998 was never clear to me. He has been preaching to spiritual Israel, and his work with them will end this fall. From this fall on for the next three years (I think) 200 million others will be brought into something, which also unclear to me. Following that the 6 million JWs will be "trampled" for 42 months, and only one third of them will repent. The term "trampled" is not defined. I think the 200 million that were mentioned earlier will "cure" the one third that repent. MDS believes he fulfills a scripture in Isaiah, but again, I forgot which one. He wrote a docuement called The Report that he promotes.
• 

  Farkel

  larc,

  Thanks for the info.

  : I forgot which one. He wrote a docuement called The Report that he promotes.

  In otherwords, he's a total crackpot. I've read The Report. He's a crackpot alright. I'd love to take him on head-to-head, but I don't really care about non-dub stuff. I'm only interested in discussing JW stuff. If a dub wants to leave and become a total crackpot, that's fine. If a dub wants to stay a dub and stay a total crackpot, that's also ok. I focus on working with the latter. The former are on their own: they've already left Watchtower Life(tm). After that, the rest is up to them. The latter are still prisoners of the Brooklyn Gestapo.

  Farkel
  Boy Scout Class
• 

  Farkel

  : I’m sorry, but I admit I have not responded to your posts. I will give you one example why.

  : In your last post you said “I'm not trying to compare the WTS with Adolf Hitler point-by-point, but I am pointing out that some good deeds done by any organization must be weighed against the bad deeds also done.”

  With all due respect, I find your response absolutely disingenous. I didn't bother to rebut all you said, because I don't want to embarrass you further. But I must point out that in the very SAME post where I asked you why IN THE PAST posts of mine you had not responded, you took the material out of that CURRENT post to give your reason. Let's assume I had never use any analogy of the WTS with Adolf Hitler and simply asked you the same question. Given that, what is your response now? What post BEFORE I mentioned Adolph Hitler can you point to that was so upsetting for you (and so untrue) that you felt you had a reason not to respond to my assertions and questions? Well?

  Although I will vigorous defend my rebuttal that your defense of the WTS has a very real counterpart with the (qualified) defense of Adolph Hitler and the good that he also did, but I won't make that an issue now. You stated that the "Adolph Hitler" thing was only ONE of the reasons why you wouldn't bother to respond to me, so now I'm removing that issue from the equation. What say you now?

  You remind me so much of me so many years ago, and I feel for you more than you can know. Your posts sound more like you are trying to convince YOURSELF that what you are clinging to is actually true more than you are trying to convince others of its veracity. All of your pleas on this board look to me more like inward cries for help to yourself than they look like cries for help from others.

  It really is perfectly fine with me if you stay inside and try to fight the good fight that you are trying to do, and I wish you Godspeed and the best of success in doing so. I don't get any medals, toasters, blenders, coupons, awards or cash if you stay or leave. And I don't get eternal life if you stay or leave. My motives have no eternal reward as their end. In otherwords, I have nothing to lose or gain if you stay or leave. (Unless you believe those pesky deeemins are messin' with my head!) My only motive and my only reward is to tell people like you who are willing to listen what I know about the WTS and what I can prove about the WTS. After that, you can do whatever you want with that information.

  In either case, you have my best wishes and whatever blessing as a mere human I can bestow upon you.

  Finally, I just love your nick. That bespeaks more of what Christianity should be than all the words you or I could ever muster: love God and love your neighbor. Simple. Elegant. Perfect.

  BTW, several weeks ago I spent a wonderful evening with an active JW elder who has spent many years in the WTS. He knows that I'm a notorious "demonized apostate from hell" and all of that. He hosted dinner and we talked for hours about a mutual issue he and I and several other JWs and former JWs are working on. Yet there was never any rancor. He never tried to get me to "go back to Jehovah" and I never tried to get him to "go to Satan" or any other such rubbish. We had a common goal and we had different positions in accomplishing that goal. We both are dealing with highly-placed WT people who are interested in the same goal. Does that surprise you? Does it surprise you that ex-JWs are almost never interested in "promoting sects" and that many of us are only interested in helping JWs get information that is not otherwise available to them?

  We did discuss some JW issues and this loyal JW elder said to me as I left, "I think think that what God wants the most from us is to do our best to help our fellow man to the best of our abilities." Does that sound like something you read in the Watchtower magazine? NO! This man was talking like a Christian! He was using the same kinds of words that Jesus used and by doing so, he was committing JW heresey: he spent his evening with a demonized apostate working out ways to help the leaders who branded me that and would brand him as a heretic for trying to right their wrongs.

  All in all, we had a great time. I'm certain we will remain friends for as long as we live.

  I suggest that you don't just brush me off, but that you think long and hard about what I've written. If you don't like my style of presenting information, fine. Look at the substance of it then. And then we can diaglog. Or we can't. Remember, I don't get free toasters for "converts!" :)

  Farkel
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  larc

  Farkel,

  If you are intested in reading the dialogue of mds versus others, you can look at "Re: God Changing Chosen People" begun on Jan. 23. and "Re: How Can One Understand Prophesy Today" begun on Feb. 1. As you will notice, mds ignores many counter arguements and hurls a lot of insults.

  I did my bit, going round and round with him for awile. Now, I just scroll down past his posts to get to other people's comments.
• 

  larc

  Farkel,

  I was curious about the subject that you and your elder friend were working on with high placed WT people, or is this confidental at this time?

  Fortunately, Farkel, I'm going to Fricker's on Friday and have fried fish.
• 

  jst2laws

  Farkel,
  Just last night I ran out of the KH to catch a DF’d person before she got away to try to say something encouraging. I hate this program. I hope you can accept me as you do that elder with whom you had dinner. I will try to get accustomed to your approach but at first it does not appear to exude moderation. You seem to be very well prepared, come back amazingly fast with long and well documented rebuttals and sometimes come across with a Don Rickles type sarcasm. Years ago I would have loved to engage in mental battles with you for fun, but I’m older now and kinder. You are more experienced at this and I suppose intimidating to me. I will try to comment more often on your posts but I do not have what it takes to comment line by line as you do. So please don’t take offense. I’ll do my best.
  You’re the first I noted who picked up on my nick. Your comments were taken as a complement.
  Jst2laws
• 

  Farkel

  Hi larc,

  : I was curious about the subject that you and your elder friend were working on with high placed WT people, or is this confidental at this time?

  You should know I cannot reveal that. But given the plethora of problems faced these days by the WTS, I'm sure your fertile imagination can some up with something.

  :Fortunately, Farkel, I'm going to Fricker's on Friday and have fried fish.

  Fudge! For I forswore fine food for frickin' frolickin' fool's fanatical fantasies for filthy fame!

  Farkel
  Aliteration Class
• 

  Farkel

  :I will try to get accustomed to your approach but at first it does not appear to exude moderation.

  Moderation was never one of my strong points. Thank you for reminding me.

  : You seem to be very well prepared, come back amazingly fast with long and well documented rebuttals and sometimes come across with a Don Rickles type sarcasm.

  I'll take that as a compliment. I'm sure you intended it that way.

  : Years ago I would have loved to engage in mental battles with you for fun, but I’m older now and kinder.

  I'll be 53 in May, but I don't look it. I only look 52 3/4 and I only feel like I'm 58.

  : You are more experienced at this and I suppose intimidating to me.

  I understand. JWs (don't take this personally) are so used to being in control of a situation: at the door and in the Hall, that it must feel intimidating to engage with someone on a level playing field; to engage with someone who knows how JWs think and respond because we were JWs and we thought and felt the same way. But some of us have gone beyond that and studied other possibilites and most importantly sound and logical reasoning. Logic IS intimidating because it cuts through specious arguments that have "worked" for so long for so many. On the otherhand, logic and sound reasoning are God-given tools and we should use them to discover what we need to discover.

  : I will try to comment more often on your posts but I do not have what it takes to comment line by line as you do.

  Sure you do. Don't undersell yourself. I never went to college. I was offered several scholarships at great universities. I have an IQ that I consider to be genius. (If an IQ of 98 ain't genius then SCREW the guys that make up those stupid tests!) I pioneered instead, and waited for 1975. By 1970 all my high school friends had college degrees and I had three years of pioneering in, made MS and was giving public talks. I had only five more years to go before I could possess that mansion in Beverly Hills (after getting rid of the corpses of that family who lived there) and I would be home free! Well, it is now 26 years later and I'm still an uneducated moron.

  : So please don’t take offense. I’ll do my best.

  Why would I take offense? And DON'T SELL YOURSELF SHORT! We're all on this planet to learn and help each other, are we not? If we're not, they why in the heck are we here?

  Farkel
• 

  mommy

  WOW!
  My cyberhands are clapping!This thread is the most interesting on this forum in awhile. No offense to other, but you gotta admit this one was intense.
  I could never call my mother in law between 12:30 and 4:00pm...she was watching her "stories" Now I see why. I have read so much from everyones posts here I feel I have a piece of all of you.
  MDS I can see why you have this belief, you need it. But you continue to reject others input. If your faith is so strong you would be able to defend all of your reasoning. It appears to me you pick and choose who you have dialog with. There is nothing wrong with that, I do the same. But your intent is for all of us to see the report, is it not? So why don't you encourage any feedback you recieve about the report? Are there so many holes in your prophecy that you will not be able to bail all the water out of the boat before it sinks? I for one would love to have front row seats to mds VS. Farkel. I would probably learn more about the bible than my 17 years as a jw.
  Jst2laws,
  That was a good call for a screen name, I am glad Farkel picked it up. This is a interesting topic and thank you for bringing it up. I was so touched by your story of trying to encourage the DF sister. I too have gone out of my way to encourage those that are DF. I think the thing that finally pushed me out was...no matter what I did on a personal level, I wasn't able to cover the tracks of the other JWs. I hate, detest, vomit at, hypocrisy. I could no longer allow myself to be in a religion I didn't believe in 100% I have gone to plenty of different churches, and listened to many different views. But none of them sat right in my heart. I try to live my life, loving others as I would like to be loved. If you do this....life is simple. I can't explain it, but it isn't hard to do things anymore, it is easy because you have a peace in your heart. I don't have the guilt of, "Is someone going to see me talking to this person, will I have to explain my actions," etc etc
  Much love and prayers sent your way
  wendy
• 

  Norm

  Hi again Jst2laws,

  You said to Farkel:

  But any comparison to Hitler is too much. I was there at Bethel and know many of these guys. The motives are very different. True Hitler may have started out with a good motive too. But these guys inherited a flawed system. Even Ray, who should be more angry than anyone, is not filled with the ‘bitterness’ you condemn me for mentioning.

  I have presented you with lots of documentation about the true “nature” of the “Good News” preached by you and the Watchtower Society. For some reason you haven’t addressed those arguments and comments at all, why am I not surprised?

  Hitler butchered 6 million Jews, it was called the holocaust and he earned the disgust and condemnations of a whole world. Your precious God is going to butcher 6 billion people and you insist on calling it Good News?
  With a God like that, who needs Satan? What hideous evil deed could Satan come up with that could possibly match such a cosmic crime?

  As Farkel have observed, why is it that people like him and me who present you with very uncomfortable information about the Watchtower Society always have to be bitter? Could it be the old convenient Watchtower idea that you can safely ignore all that “bitter” people say? Don’t you think we have heard all this before?

  Ray Franz had been a high-ranking representative in the Watchtower Society system most of his life. He had been part of much of the policy of the Watchtower Society; he clearly would gain a lot from presenting the Watchtower Society in the most possibly positive way.

  In case you haven’t noticed, Farkel didn’t “condemn” you, he just observed the old worn out Watchtower cliché used as a thought stopper and tool to dismiss all arguments from such a “bitter” person. Condemnations are something we leave to the pro’s in Brooklyn. You should try to distinguish between sarcasm and bitterness. As a fundamentally decent man Farkel is filled with a strong indignation against organizations like the Watchtower Society, isn’t that something to commend him for? Instead of speculating about his state of mind, why not deal with his arguments?

  We fully understand that you are in a difficult situation, many of us has been where you are now. You realize what a mess the Watchtower Society is, yet you don’t look at leaving it as a very appealing alternative either, so you have to search for reasons to stay. Of course Farkel, I and many others isn’t providing much help in that department. We really suck in that regard.

  Norm.