by ozziepost 36 Replies latest jw friends
At least the dubs aren't murdering people and physically torturing people like Paul was doing.
Bulldust!!!
In the Great South Land, that's what we call something that's utter rubbish.
I guess that's judging too, eh?
Edited by - ozziepost on 14 September 2002 10:6:22
Ozzie,
I see the same look in the 'eye' from those with differing political views, than my own. An almost 'up yours' kinda look for daring to take exception to their particular stand whatever that happens to be. Scorn seems like a pretty good word to describe it.
I think of my parents, who lived and worked their lives away as loyal jw's. They witnessed first hand Judge Rutherford's daliances with alcohol, abuse of power, violation of 'Ceaser's laws'. They willingly submitted to physical beatings by mob action in Zainesville Ohio in the 40's. Alway's making the exuse that the Judge was imperfect BUT was being used by Jehovah. So hell or high water we are going to do what he says. Similar to the average modern day jw's view ar regards the 'faithful and discreet slave'...don't ya think?
My father once even saying that the Judge was so influential that 'if he said to jump off a cliff' he, my dad ,would have done so willingly. How much more evidence than that statement, does one need to establish the mindset of almost any loyal dub. Wheather they admit or not, every one of them makes a conscience decision to submit, to turn over their thinking abilities. We all did it, some to a greater degree than others.
Until the time that something jogs or awakens us from the path of least resistance, we continue to submit. When you tie the Almighty God's anger and retribution into the mix, everlasting life, retention of speaking rights to ones own flesh and blood, the exercise of ones own free will or thinking is not eagerly pursued by most jw's.In fact it is something they do everything in their power to resist.
So are they accountable. Yes. Are they to be pitied? Yes.
But more than anything else, they need to hear the bold and unreserved condemnation of the lies, deciet and outright manipulation, the WTBS and all it representitives since CTR have foisted upon them. The more we reveal these facts and figures, the chance for those long dormant independent thinking brains cells to flicker and ignite.
Danny
>>In the Great South Land, that's what we call something that's utter rubbish.<<
It's one thing to label something rubbish, it's another thing to prove the claim.
>>I guess that's judging too, eh?>>
No that's finding something good in others. Judging is negative, of which I stressed a positive.
Matt 5:43-45
"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven."
There is NOTHING worse than ones ENEMIES and those inflicting PERSECUTION (shunning) on another. If you LOVE your enemy, you will not judge EVEN THEM negatively even when they think what they are doing is right.
So, if Christ says to LOVE even our enemies and our persecutors, who else is there for us to judge? Our BROTHER? Who are we to judge Oz? Tell me who?
DO NOT JUDGE...
Edited by - pomegranate on 14 September 2002 12:13:12
I'm sure many are able to put the Borg in the distant past. If only we could! Unfortunately, there are many here who are closely connected still with the Borg, if involuntarily, because of family connection. The bizarre aspect is that you can put the borg behind you, only to find tit re-appearing because of factors beyond your control.In this respect, I can feel some affinity with those who've been victims or been abused within the Witness community.
Well Ozzie, I certainly don't suggest that you push away the experience - if you're connected you are connected, and in a broader sense we are all connected. Some people might cut off ties so they can move on, I think you can cope just as easily if you simply connect with others without limiting yourself. Even here there are so many who are willing to connect that I think it's a shame to dwell on the family that's in simply because you are blood relatives, to me there is the potential for a lot of close friendships here which can be as close if not closer than a family member. As far as I'm concerned, that openness is more important than what you have in common, because even someone who was never a witness can care about you deeply.
Matt 5:43-45
"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven."
Pomagranate,
Ozzie does not have to prove anything to you. He was correct in exposing the Watchtower and its witnesses. And I proved it scripturally as well. You have Judgment to condemnation confused with Judgment in the context of exposure or enlightenment. Most references to judgment were written to prevent abuse and are therefore negative. But judgment is a word that can be used in more than this one context. This does not mean that judgment is forbidden. There are many examples of judgment in scripture as I demonstrated. They were more than just counsel, oh yes they were judgmental messages mostly in Pauls writing but strong examples in Luke as well. But the intent of such exposure by Paul and Luke was to correct such ones and bring them to a knowledge of truth. The label judgment was not put on such messages as it was done properly, but they were judgmental regardless.
You are judging here in this thread in fact and but you cannot see it. You may think you are doing the right thing but you are both judging and abusing texts. The above text does not prevent exposing the wrongdoer. Exposing their sin does not mean we hate them. Such exposure even if it does not aid the wrongdoer can aid others involved with such persons. This shows love not hate for ones fellowman. In fact this is what we are obligated to do.
1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
Exposure is judgment and it does not matter if you believe it or not. Such witnesses are in serious trouble and need help. What you do not understand about judgment is well covered in scripture. It is not forbidden or prevented as you keep saying in this thread. But it must be done in righteousness as permitted by our Lord and as practiced by Him as well. Notice:
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Jesus did not forbid judging and admitted that He judged others. (Mostly by telling them off) There are many such examples as everyone well knows.
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
And these are instructions for everyone else evildoer or not. This is what Ozzie did, this is what I did and this is the message you deny or refuse to accept. Judgment is permitted, but it must be righteous judgment of course. Based upon proper knowledge and personal experience. But it was necessary for everyone to see that you do not understand such things and warn them about you in the process.
Joseph
OZZIE, could you PLEASE , to the point, try to express your idea? Because if you are saying that every JW is guilty, you are right. But to ignore why all JW's are guilty would be wrong. JW's are affected by the mind control that exists. If they fall for it {and they all do}, then they are guilty of whatever. So since that seems obvious, am i missing something?
>>Ozzie does not have to prove anything to you.<<
He also doesn't need you to do his replying either. Or does he?
>>He was correct in exposing the Watchtower and its witnesses.<<
According to who? You? Exposing ISN'T saying MEN ARE GUILTY. Exposing isn't saying THEY ARE NOT INNOCENT. Exposing isn't saying THEY SHARE IN THE SINS OF OTHERS. THAT'S PURE CONDEMNATORY JUDGMENT of other men.
THAT IS WRONG according to Christ and Paul, NOT ME.
>>And I proved it scripturally as well.<<
I have seen no scriptual proof in validating another sinner judging another sinner with GUILT and CONDEMNATION. The Bible is quite plain. How you judge another YOU SHALL BE JUDGED. Quite elementary even.
Do you judge CONDEMNATORY and NEGATIVE of another man, SO YOU WILL BE JUDGED THE SAME WAY.
Do you judge COMMENDATORY and POSITIVE of another man, SO YOU WILL BE JUDGED THE SAME WAY.
>>You have Judgment to condemnation confused with Judgment in the context of exposure or enlightenment.<<
I have not confused ANYTHING. When others such as yourself and Oz use stuff like "they are NOT INNOCENT" and "they are guilty of the sins of others" is way over the line of condemnatory judgment that is painted quite clearly by Christ and Paul.
>>Most references to judgment were written to prevent abuse and are therefore negative.<<
If you are not a judge of RIGHTEOUSNESS, then ALL NEGATIVE judgment is abuse. You are not a judge and neither is the great Oz. (Though you are surely playing the part unauthorized.)
>>But judgment is a word that can be used in more than this one context. This does not mean that judgment is forbidden.<<
As I have stated previously, I have full understanding and no problem with RIGHT judgment which would be for THE INDIVIDUAL who is making JUDGMENT FOR HIMSELF or another man in a positive way. Once that one puts HIS JUDGMENT of what is right and wrong on anothers CONSCIENCE, condemning to guilt, HE is WAY OUT OF LINE. If that is how YOU wish to perform, go for it. It is not mine to stop you.
>>There are many examples of judgment in scripture as I demonstrated.<<
You demonsatrated NO NEGATIVE JUDGMENT from one sinner to another as being GOOD. Why? Because it was NEVER recorded in the Bible. PAUL never negatively judged anyone. YOU and OZ negatively judge individual dubs...that's WRONG, not according to me, but by Christ and Paul. But, as I said, I can't stop that which you are going to do, as that is obviously what you are.
>>You are judging here in this thread in fact and but you cannot see it.<<
I am showing YOU what Paul has said. I have neither CONDEMNED nor COMMENDED you by MY own words. I have not called you GUILTY nor have I used the phrase NOT INNOCENT. Those are the words of judgment that you and Oz choose to use freely on others and I have refrained from using them at all. I have showed you PLAINLY Christ's GLOBAL admonition DO NOT JUDGE and yet you STILL want to play the JUDGE.
Again go for it, as that is the part you obviously must play.
>>You may think you are doing the right thing but you are both judging and abusing texts.<<
That is your opinion. I have neither CONDEMNED, nor have I accused anyones GUILT or INNOCENCE. You have done BOTH by claiming dubs are guilty, which means you must be innocent. Perhaps your sins as a dub will not be forgiven you...afterall, God has NO OBLIGATION to you or any man. So...judge away judge. Make your righteousness known to all men. It is as you must be.
>>The above text does not prevent exposing the wrongdoer.<<
Exposing and JUDGING are TWO VERY DIFFERENT THINGS as I have shown before. Yet you choose to ignore it. Be the judge, it is YOUR WILL.
>>Exposing their sin does not mean we hate them.<<
Exposing and JUDGING are two different things. Always has been, always will be. Hate has nothing to do with ANYTHING we are discussing. It's actually all about LOVE.
>>Such exposure even if it does not aid the wrongdoer can aid others involved with such persons. This shows love not hate for ones fellowman. In fact this is what we are obligated to do.<<
Exposing and JUDGING are two different things. Always has been, always will be.
>>Exposure is judgment and it does not matter if you believe it or not.<<
Now the judge decides to redefine words to fit his WILL TO WANT TO JUDGE OTHER MEN. Go for it.
Please go to the dictionary and read the definitions of expose and judge. They are NOT synonamous.
>>John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Jesus did not forbid judging and admitted that He judged others. (Mostly by telling them off) There are many such examples as everyone well knows.<<
I can't believe you use the TRUE JUDGES work, a SINLESS MAN who was AUTHORIZED to judge, as suppport for you, an old man STEEPED in his sins from birth, as JUST reason to judge other sinful men. That is bogus. You have just proved yourself fighting Christ himself. You have NO RIGHT to compare your CONDEMNATORY judgments of other men, to Christ's RIGHTEOUS CONDEMNATORY judgments of men.
>>John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.<<
Old man, this is JESUS the true judge speaking to THE DEFIANT JEWS. He has EVERY RIGHT to slap them in the face, as it is HIS GOD GIVEN AUTHORITY to JUDGE THEM. You cannot use this text to support YOUR sinful wish to be a judge because you are a SINFUL MAN and CANNOT judge correctly in righteousness. (No matter how great and right you think your judgments are.)
>>And these are instructions for everyone else evildoer or not.<<
These are not instructions kind sir. These are words of CONDEMNATION to the defiant Jews. You have twisted the truth of these simple texts to support a twisted view.
>>This is what Ozzie did, this is what I did and this is the message you deny or refuse to accept.<<
I expose you BOTH as being in violation of Christ's and Paul's simple words. Yes, I deny you and Oz having the right to put guilt and the sins of others on them. Yes I refuse to accept YOUR and Oz's judgments of other men as being NOT INNOCENT as doves.
>>Judgment is permitted, but it must be righteous judgment of course.<<
So how does a wicked unrighteous man pull off any righteous judgments? HE CAN'T. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE. That is why the counsel, BACK OFF ON THE JUDGMENTS DUDES. Or you'll be bagged.
>>Based upon proper knowledge and personal experience. But it was necessary for everyone to see that you do not understand such things and warn them about you in the process.<<
Warn them about me? Oooo. Sound the warning. The judge has spoken. Another guilty evildoer in their midsts.
Well, I was born that way...a dirtbag of the first degree. At least I won't condemn any dubs, or you, or Oz.
I am not righteous.
Edited by - pomegranate on 14 September 2002 22:23:22
