The look in the eyes

by ozziepost 36 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Makena1

  Hillary - you put very succintly into words what I have been feeling for the past 2 years: "I believe that religion is a dangerous institution and should be gradually controlled by Government. I also believe that spirituality is a magnificent virtue when it lives outside of attempts to regiment and confine it within enforced social patterns".

  Unfortunately, there is still a large majority who feel that spirituality cannot exist outside of an established church or religious belief system.

  I have serious doubts about looking to the Bible for modern day prophecy - however, Revelation's story of the beast turning on the harlot (organized religion according to JW thought) could very well come about. Keeping track of Religion in its radical extreme form, whether its Muslim, Hindu or Christianity, is a huge drain on Gov resources, IMO. (the story on the Afghan (?)father who beheaded his daughter who he thought had been raped made me physically sick)

  Ozzie - getting back to your topic. I think I understand where you are coming from. Reverting back to JW think, I would have to say that we humans are incapable of knowing the true motivations of people that "have that look in their eyes". Are they deceived followers, or purposefully evil?

  When I was "in" - I think I was fully in. However, I can honestly say, I never sneered at, or turned my back on ones who were disassociated or DF'd. If a hello wasn't audibly said, at least a nod and a kind warm smile was given.

  Mak

  not DF'd or DA'd, but recently shunned by a "sister" who turned her shopping cart around and went the other way at Home Depot. (insert rolling eye icon here...........LOL)
• 

  pomegranate

  Luke 6:31
  Do to others as you would have them do to you.
  
  That TOTALLY eliminates ALL JUDGING of any sort of my fellow man by me.

  Well, I guess Joseph has his pants all up in a ball to be a judge. So, as the famous Beatle song says:

  Let It Be.
• 

  JosephMalik

  Luke 6:31
  Do to others as you would have them do to you.

  Pomegranate,

  I have nothing to fear. You seem to be the one with the problem. Others judge me all the time and more often than not it is to the good. I just had a retirement party where they went over my life at the plant and it was a great testimony. And there was plenty of food there as well. So judging works to the good as well as to the detriment depending upon the circumstances. That is why humanity will be divided into sheep and goats. All this is based upon biblical principals.

  I really enjoyed your childish remarks. They made me smile and that was great.

  Joseph
• 

  ozziepost

  "Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood."

  The words of that old rock song come to mind here.

  "An emotive issue"? - Sure seems so, H.S. !! Anyway, perhaps a few footnotes from old Ozzie.

  Somehow, we seem to have gotten into a discussion about judging Dubs; something I never meant. My point had been that the R&F can be just as guilty of abominable conduct as the so-called leaders. It was in response to comments on other threads wherein it was asserted that all were innocent. I cannot accept that, and for reasons stated in my post. I see that many individual R&F are very willing to exercise the hateful actions that they feel the Borgmeisters have commanded. This includes members of my own family; something which has been quite well-documented here. See, for example, a thread I started on "The Un-Invitation Card".

  The German people were not at Nuremberg, it's true, but not that all were innocent either. It was just that it was impractical and impracticable. Still, many more than those tried had been willing servants of a hateful regime. I agree that their 'crime' was explicit, not complicit. Similarly, today, with the JW organisation. However, we see many willing to comply.

  My post is also in response to the recent assertions that too many posters here 'speak' negatively of the WTS. So I made this final comment:

  This is not to defend the extreme cases of bile and ridicule sometimes found in posts, but it needs to be seen in the context of what the Borg is and those who defend it.

  Perhaps there is a lot of negativity. If there is, one can surely understand why this is so!

  Nonetheless, I'm reminded of Jesus' words during test: "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."

  An attitude to be recommended.

  Cheers, Ozzie

  Edited by - ozziepost on 14 September 2002 3:11:35
• 

  JosephMalik

  Ozzie,

  I know what you meant and I agree with you. After all it is a part of our lives and personally experienced by us. But some would not let this be. They wanted to make more of it so all this came about. Taken to this level terms such as judgment and condemnation had to be hashed out. Hopefully this was done and everyone can now come to your own conclusions.

  Joseph
• 

  Knotty_boy

  I was at a gas station the other day, paid for my stuff, turned around to leave and there stood

  one of the good ole elders of my old cong. Coffee in one hand.. trying to slip can of chew into

  pocket, confidentialy.. with the other.... Was working fine, untill the inevitable happened.. He struck a conver

  sation.. So natuarally, I lost the coffee, and the can of chew went sailing across the floor, towards

  downtown. I started thinking.. What the hell am I doing, hiding this crap.. I don't answer to these freaks any-

  more! It was just a natural reflex, I guess from years of being paranoid about being caught by our loving

  brothers, sisters and elders, for living life our own way!!

  [img]
• 

  Introspection

  Hi Ozzie, I almost didn't see your message in the other thread because it scrolled down.

  I think you have a point. I wouldn't approach it quite that way or even use the word guilt myself, as that undoubtedly would trigger some knee jerk responses. But the fact of the matter is in any situation that we're involved in we are participants, even if we don't know any better.

  One of the things I suggest to people is about fully accepting whatever arises, and certainly that starts with yourself, whether it's feelings, thoughts or whatever. I guess the key thing is you don't want to be in denial about anything negative, even if it reflects badly on you as a person. I think that to accept the "dark side" of yourself allows you to have more compassion for others. When you reject that part of yourself there is a tendancy to externalize it in some way, project it I suppose in psychological terms where you make some other your enemy. Obviously, this doesn't mean you act on those destructive tendancies, and I think that potential is also externalized in some way when you are in denial about what arises internally. This is what I was getting at with Mo in the other thread, it's a matter of shutting down - though I have to admit "dead heart" is rather harsh language and less than tactful.

  Incidentally, I think I should explain again and probably make a note of this whenever I speak in terms of "over it" that it isn't that I'm claiming my past has no effect on the present or the future, but for one thing in my case there has been enough other factors that the present no longer resembles anything like what could have been affected by a JW past. And in more recent posts I tried to make the point that despite our past, we can choose not to believe those thoughts or act on those feelings even if they are still arising, the first step being to accept that they are there, and also what they in fact are so that we are aware of them. So even if the conditioning is there, you might say it can kind of burn itself out without us adding fuel to the fire. Even (and if) before that happens completely, I feel that it's important to point out that you already have freedom. Even if you are experiencing some dreaded feeling, often you will hear people acknowledge that they are aware that it's just the patterns from the past. In that recognition is where you can find your freedom, even if the feeling exists at the same time. That awareness that allows you to recognize that it's just conditioning from the past is what I want to speak to when I talk about this, because that is the intelligent being that we are, the rest is just stuff that happend. I think that's the best way I can put it.
• 

  pomegranate

  >>I have nothing to fear.<<

  Beware that you do not fall.

  >>You seem to be the one with the problem.<<

  Just showing some fine counsel to another man who refuses to accept it. That's not my problem.

  >>Others judge me all the time and more often than not it is to the good.<<

  Not according to Jesus. According to you.

  >>I just had a retirement party where they went over my life at the plant and it was a great testimony. And there was plenty of food there as well. So judging works to the good as well as to the detriment depending upon the circumstances.<<

  Judging someone else is always meant as a negative thing in the Bible. Nobody stable would counsel another for positive remarks, and nobody stable would call talking about someones good life at a job as "judgment." Surely I comprehend "judging" to mena two different things, such as judging when to cross the street. That judgment is my own for myself. When Somone else starts to take their personal NEGATIVE JUDGMENT and apply it to another...that's where their dead wrong.

  >>That is why humanity will be divided into sheep and goats.<<

  Based on a the real Judges own standards not by an old retired man who wishes to be a judge.

  >>All this is based upon biblical principals.<<

  Actually, I believe it is all based on whatever it is God wants to do in love and mercy.

  >>I really enjoyed your childish remarks. They made me smile and that was great.<<

  Insult? Thank you. I accept it gladly.

  Mark 10:15
  I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

  Edited by - pomegranate on 14 September 2002 9:13:1
• 

  ozziepost

  G'day Intro,

  There seems to be a number of conversations going on in this thread; kinda like people talking over each other. You know how it is at a party!

  It's Saturday evening here, and much too late to have a "deep and meaningful". However, just wanted to say thank you for your thoughts and the time taken to respond.

  I'm sure many are able to put the Borg in the distant past. If only we could! Unfortunately, there are many here who are closely connected still with the Borg, if involuntarily, because of family connection. The bizarre aspect is that you can put the borg behind you, only to find tit re-appearing because of factors beyond your control.

  In this respect, I can feel some affinity with those who've been victims or been abused within the Witness community.

  Keep posting, brother.

  Cheers, Ozzie
• 

  pomegranate

  >>"Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood."

  The words of that old rock song come to mind here.<<

  Well Oz, you have yet to explain yourself, and Joe here seems to think judging another man, ANY MAN, negatively is OK. You? (Good tune, Eric Burden and the Animals.)

  >>Somehow, we seem to have gotten into a discussion about judging Dubs; something I never meant.<<

  Well Mr. Oz here are your exact words:

  "Are the R&F [rank & file JW's] guilty of sharing in the sins of the Borg? IMO they are."

  The above is a pure unauthorized NEGATIVE judgment call of MANY other men by a man who is a sinner. Simply wrong Biblically.

  >>My point had been that the R&F can be just as guilty of abominable conduct as the so-called leaders.<<

  Who may I ask are you to make that judgment call?

  It is no secret that some WILL be guilty of sharing in the sins of others, but guess what? That is another judgment call that has to be made by God. Oz, have you ever thought that you too may be sharing in the sins of others by being a judge unauthorized? You could be in the collected class of ones sinning called "The unauthorized to judge" sinners class.

  Moses was a murderer. Rahab a two bit slut whore. Saul before becoming Paul a Pharisaic gang land murderer of Christ's people. David? Well he's got quite the record. Each one was chosen by God not becasue of their works, but because GOD WANTED THEM by HIS JUDGMENT. The very JW you may be pointing your finger of judgment at, may very well be one that may be chosen or used by God. Who knows? Do you? I know I don't. My point is, you could be judging somone God has ALREADY planted as his OWN for his own purpose. Good advice is: Lay off ALL NEGATIVE judgment, that is GOD'S territory alone.

  >>It was in response to comments on other threads wherein it was asserted that all were innocent.<<

  How bout this, and it's Biblical as all get out. It is not my judgment, it is God's Word speaking:

  WE ARE ALL GUILTY.

  Rom 3:10
  As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

  I AM AS GUILTY AS AN ACTIVE JW...even though I am not. Me NOT being a JW is not going to give me favorable judgment by God. That is what's true for me. Though you and Joseph may not care to admit it, it is the same for you.

  >>I cannot accept that, and for reasons stated in my post. I see that many individual R&F are very willing to exercise the hateful actions that they feel the Borgmeisters have commanded.<<

  Just like the Apostle Paul maybe? How come you don't bitch about they way he was and yet God chose him? When's the last time a dub took a life for his beliefs? Paul did it all the time before his FORCED conversion. At least the dubs aren't murdering people and physically torturing people like Paul was doing.

  >>This includes members of my own family; something which has been quite well-documented here. See, for example, a thread I started on "The Un-Invitation Card".<<

  I have some of my own family in, I know the deal. I still ain't going to judge them though. I try to remain neutral, yet it is sinful inclination to adversely judge.

  >>Nonetheless, I'm reminded of Jesus' words during test: "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." <<

  You can't adversely make judgment and forgive at the same time. They are as far apart as the East and the West.

  That same dude said this, "DO NOT JUDGE"

  So I don't. (though sometimes I do and I sin for doing it. It this darn sinful flesh my spirit resides in. It's so overpowering ya know?)