It is impossible to offend someone who does not exist.
He does exist!
The devil exists!
Santa Claus esists!
They all exist in people's imagination
What is God doing?
by Kagloo 46 Replies latest jw experiences
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Faraon
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DanielHaase
Elsewhere, Faraon.. hehhehheh. Kill em all and let a Norse god sort 'em out!
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Kagloo
Thanks for the replies to my question. Some of you seem to feel just like I do.
Here are some specific points:
ISP... If Jehovah is not 'active' as you put it how do you explain the fact that you and I are here now...living and breathing. It says somewhere in scripture that all things exist because of God's Will..(Rev 4:11) If he was not consciously willing all the things that he created to exist wouldn't everything just fold up as he stopped willing them to exist? I don't know ?
DOUBLE EDGE... I think that you and I were probably formed out of the same 'lump' of clay as you seem to express exactly the way I feel... all the mountains and the valleys.... I hate the valleys don't you.
ELSEWHERE... You need some therapy!
NAKED MVISTAR.... I think that it's a wise person who takes out the insurance before the disaster arrives. I agree with you. paradise could be great... but if it never happens I still think that having my understanding of 'The Truth' in my life has made it bearable. And if this is all there is it won't matter one way or the other when I turn to sand, will it.
Tzu... Thanks for the comments... You and I feel the same way. As far as being angry at Jehovah....
Perhaps a little story might cast some light on the subject...
A few years ago now my daughter had a son - our first grandson - he was beautiful and his name was Liam. My daughter took Liam on holiday to Sussex in Southern England... ( I live in the North near Manchester) Three days later I was called and told that they had found him dead in his cot (SIDS) I travelled to Sussex and bought a tiny white coffin and brought liam home for burial. I carried that coffin for three hundred miles on my knee. All the congregation came to the funeral it was a devastatingly difficult time for us all. But for me personally what made it worse was that just a few weeks before my step mum had died from a sudden and catastrophic kidney failure followed just five weeks later by my dad who died of a broken heart I think.
Just as we got that out of the way I started a bible study with my deputy manager at work, and she took the truth and was baptised. She was a very special lady. Sadly she was walking her dog in July of that year and she and her husband were hit by a runaway truck. She (Marie) was killed as was her husband (Rod) and their litle dog. An old lady was also hit and died, as did the driver who had suffered a heart attack at the wheel..
And then just a few months ago my sister ( also in the truth ) fell down the stairs and had a massive blood clot on her brain. We turned the ventilator off ten days later and she was dead within two minutes.... such a precious soul... I can hardly bear to think about it.
On every occassion I 'raged' at Jehovah like a madman. What had my grandson done? He was only five months old! My step mum was only 52 and my dad was.... well he was just my dad.. and I loved him. Marie was a different matter... She loved the truth and was planning to become a pioneer.. full of hope full of love for Jehovah and by sheer chance she happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time...
And my sister..... She had just come home from a circuuit assembly and was preparing for the groups study when she fell.... She loved Jehovah so much.. how could he let such a thing happen to her?
I'll tell you in truth I have raged to hard at Jehovah that it hurt....
But back to your comment about the wisdom of such a thing. I really believe that Jehovah would expect no less from us. We are dust ... dying and diseased dust at that.. and am sure that I am closer to him now because I have been open and honest with him about the way I felt.
So do I think it's wrong to be angry at Jehovah... No I don't... He has broad enough shoulders to handle any human's raving when they are broken in spirit. Well that's what i think anyway.
TR... I think that you too need therapy !
OUTSIDER FRIEND... I concur with your comment... why spit out filth when all I did was ask a reasonable question. ITR and ELSEWHERE should put their sense of decency into gear before they open their mouths perhaps. Mind you I would defend to the death their right to have their opinion and express it... but some sort of decency would be nice boyz!
Anyways... that's about all I have to say for now. Thanks for the comments so far.
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Faraon
It is impossible to offend someone who does not exist.
ELSEWHERE... You need some therapy!
People who keep on believing that god exists, without even seeing proof, or worse yet, believing that an unreliable, rabid, murdering deceitful, adulterous god will bring justice and a peaceful paradise are the ones that need therapy.
Even worse are those who help break families, murder others by preventing them from receiving vaccines, organ transplants, or blood transfusions, protect pedophyles, and shun relatives and others in the name of an everchanging real estate and publishing company who represent said god.
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Double Edge
People who keep on believing, that god exists without ever seeing proof,.......are the ones who need therapy.
Maybe. But those who do see proof everyday can do nothing less than believe, which includes me.
....believing that an unreliable, rabid, murdering deceitful, adulterous god will bring justice and a peaceful paradise
Now that I would agree with....I'm glad THAT god only exists in the minds of people who have decided in their all-knowing minds what god is.
Kagloo:
Sorry for all your losses this past year....If this miniscule moment of eternity (this life) was all there is, then I know it would be unbearable....but I know that life is eternal and someday we'll all have answers to all of our compelling quesitions.
Edited by - Double Edge on 21 September 2002 18:25:38
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Kagloo
FARAON....
A Universal law...... Cause and Effect.
I see effects all around me every single day...Life is all it's abundance and complexityand beauty. So what is the Cause? The Law in Universal.. it can't be sidestepped or ignored. And all the 'rabid' (to use your own vocabulary) comments that you spit out can't alter it!
For every effect there HAS to be a cause!
I take your point that the 'Society' might be 'up the creek' in many ways but in my experience it has almost always been a source of instruction and comfort for me.(Even if some of its representatives are slightly bonkers!) But that does not change the fact that we exist and therefore in my way of thinking there must be a Cause....
You may think that Cause rabid and vengeful and and the other stuff that you said... and believe me I have had enough negative experiences and tragedies (is that how you spell it?) in my life in the truth to feel the same way... but when I feel that way I look into the night sky and stare in wonder at the beauty of it all or I watch a bee as it collects honey from the flowers in my garden I know that He is non of the those things that you accuse Him of. ( But again I defend your right to express your opinion... as negative as that seems to me)
Wow... you must really be sore! Or hurting or something. First of all you answer my simple question with a diatribe of abusive innuendo and then when I comment on the fact you immediately hit back with all this hateful stuff!
I hope you have a peaceful night ( where ever you are ). I'm off to bed!
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Faraon
Double Edge,
Maybe. But those who do see proof everyday can do nothing less than believe, which includes me.
Where is the proof?
Now that I would agree with....I'm glad THAT god only exists in the minds of people who have decided in their all-knowing minds what god is.
Unfortunately billions of people believe in that god. He is found in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Kagloo,
A Universal law...... Cause and Effect.
I see effects all around me every single day...Life is all it's abundance and complexity and beauty. So what is the Cause?
Abundance, complexity and beauty do not prove that a god exists. Life could have existed without a creator. Abundance and complexity exist because they are necessary to the survival of the fittest. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. If you think that something is beautiful is because you compare it with what you consider ugly. There is abundance of ugliness too. Illnesses, killings, etc.
The Law in Universal.. it can't be sidestepped or ignored.
If you are talking about cause and effect, I will grant you that. If you refer to life, it is not universal. Cause and effect do not require a god.
And all the 'rabid' (to use your own vocabulary) comments that you spit out can't alter it!
I am talking about the god of the bible. If there is a god, and it was wise and loving it would not be like the one in the bible. Look at all the killings he made. It solves everything by killing! It even hardens Pharaoh's heart so that it finally has the pleasure of killing every firstborn, even newborn ones, perfectly innocent. It behaves more like a rabid dog than a loving entity.
For every effect there HAS to be a cause!
Yes, but is the big bang god? The Big Bang started the creation of stars and life in the universe. It began billions of years before Earth was created, not after Earth, like the bible says.
I take your point that the 'Society' might be 'up the creek' in many ways but in my experience it has almost always been a source of instruction and comfort for me.(Even if some of its representatives are slightly bonkers!) But that does not change the fact that we exist and therefore in my way of thinking there must be a Cause.
Think about what you just said. Are you admitting that you find comfort in the teachings of a society, which admittedly has representatives that are "slightly bonkers"?
Yes, there is a cause for our existing, it is called parents, which the Wacko Tower tells us to shun if they don't agree with their views.
You may think that Cause rabid and vengeful and and the other stuff that you said... and believe me I have had enough negative experiences and tragedies (is that how you spell it?) in my life in the truth to feel the same way...
I am not talking about the god that is in the minds of most people. I am talking about the mythical Jewish god of war found in the bible. How can you say that this god is loving after reading about him in the bible?
but when I feel that way I look into the night sky and stare in wonder at the beauty of it all or I watch a bee as it collects honey from the flowers in my garden I know that He is non of the those things that you accuse Him of.
It is surely nice to ponder about the vastness of the universe, and wonder if there is life somewhere else, but if you read the bible, these same stars were created under a firmament (firm, or solid layer} that had water. They were created after the plants were created by the gods (elohim). By creating the sun, moon and stars on the fourth day, it in fact claims there were days before days existed.
As for the bees, I am aware of the beauty of their design. Carrying the pollen sacks on their legs, being able to see the ultraviolet, and even having built-in combs. Yet, have you wondered why does this god create the males only to reproduce, without means of feeding themselves, and wind up starving to death?
( But again I defend your right to express your opinion... as negative as that seems to me)
So do I. I believe that only through communication, we can resolve issues.
Wow... you must really be sore! Or hurting or something. First of all you answer my simple question with a diatribe of abusive innuendo and then when I comment on the fact you immediately hit back with all this hateful stuff!
Yes, I am sore. The Wacko Tower destroyed a part of the life of my daughters. Organized religion made me suffer things that I now know I did not have to suffer.
Diatribe, yes, abusive and innuendo, no. It is not innuendo, but the truth. I used to think that it was only the WT crooked thinking of the bible that made people that way. I came to the conclusion that the base of evil resides in the bible. It is so contradictory that this is the reason why so many religions emerged from it. The hateful stuff was not directed to you or to anyone in particular. Please read your bible with an open mind, not with the mind of someone making excuses.
I hope you have a peaceful night ( where ever you are ). I'm off to bed!
Same to you. May peace reign in you not only tonight but for the rest of your life.
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Kagloo
FARAON...
I too have a daughter whose life has been irrevocably damaged by man who claimed to serve God! And although it grieves my spirit to hear that you have had the same you obviously know that you don't have a monopoly of that kind of experience... that goes without saying. Perhaps the difference between you and I is that we have chosen to deal with our experience in a different way to you.
If you read my earlier answers you will see that like you I have have had many reasons to think that Jehovah does not care or is oblivious to what we have been and are still going through... but I don't think that way... I think that I know the reasons for what has gone on for the past few thousand years.... and I still have implicit trust in Jehovah to do as he promised. i.e. All things made new.
I won't patronise you by saying that I feel sorry for you, because I don't..we are what we allow ourselves to become.. or sadly sometimes what experience and the maleavolence of others makes us.
I can only speak for myself and that being the case I am certain in my mind that the the Law of Cause and Effect is non-negotiable... I can't get around it!
You say that life could have come by chance or that maybe the Big Bang is God... maybe that is the truth of the matter... But whatever the Truth is, the One who started all this off is a lot wiser than I am, and I for one am still ( after all that has happened to us as a family -) prepared to put my trust in him. (My daughter continues to serve God too, along with her husband and four sons.)
In your reply you seem to focus in on all the negative things that you can think of to highlight God's 'faults' or whatever you would call them, but there are examples too where God saved and helped and supported and sustained... I know that he has provided comfort and hope for me and my family through the darkest of trials.
For you it seems that glass is always half empty... for me it looks half full. I guess that we just look at thing a different way!
re: Finding some of the Society's reps a little bonkers!
I was well aware of what I wrote!
I don't trust any Society of imperfect men. (Do not put your trust in etc....)
I put my trust in the God revealed to me through the pages of the Bible and in the example and life of His Son!
If you think about it even some of Jesus' own disciples were a bit 'off the wall' You know the kind of thing... arguing all the time, bickering and egotistical etc.etc.etc.. But for me that doesn't mean that their Master wasn't worth listening to! In fact it was the very way that he dealt with them that I find the most comfort in.
Finally... You'll have to excuse my frivolity to end with... but I found it amusing that you even found fault with the reproductive cycle of the honey bee!!!!
I think that whatever the Creator did... (however you percieve him) you would find fault with some aspect of it.... But hey maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps you do have a positive side!
In any event I thank you sincerely for your reply. I am just about to take off for a long walk to contemplate the beauty of the creation (or the accident according to you).
Take care and thanks for the life long blessing of peace which I wholeheartedly reciprocate.
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Satanus
Sorry to hear that you had a hell of a bad stretch. It's good that you vented your feelings at jehovah, since he was your god at the time
I would answer your question w the thought that why should god be doing anything? Why couldn't he be off somewhere just enjoying himself in a constant exctasy? Why do we think that he or a devil must be to blame for everything? Couldn't all this stuff (excluding creation) just happen through some natural processes? If that was the case, then we need to take responsibility for stuff happening on earth. Animals, plants and bugs die every minute of the day and night. Is god somehow responsible for that too? He doesn't seem to be creating anymore, so why jump to the conclusion that he is carrying kind of insurance policy for our lives, generally?
Even if the above suggestions were true, they would not nesesarily negate love from god. The sun showers down light on the earth, on everyone and everything. Nevertheless, the sun takes no actions to stop accidents or suffering. Similarly, god could be showering down his love to every human, plant and animal, yet to cause or restrict bad stuff.
SS
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Kagloo
SS
A few good points... thanks for that! I guess Jehovah doesn't have to answer to me about what he's been doing anyway... it's just that sometimes when bad things happen you get flustered and angry ( well I do at least) and you turn to the One who talks about caring for you and loving you and all that sort of stuff. Mind you - I really love my daughter and my son and my six grandsons... but I don't involve myself with every aspect of their lives... Is that the point that you are making?
I think that perhaps Jehovah is not actively doing any creating in our part of the universe... mind you they do say that there are parts of the galaxy where stars are being formed.. perhaps He is overseeing that..I don't know! But I would imagine that he is busy doing lots of other things in other universes... I believe the term is " The Multiverse" ......or other dimensions or something.
All I know is that I believe that he has made an 'appointment' to get back to us to sort the mess out that we are in and that he will probably do just that. Well that's how I see it anyway.
Thanks again for your view of the matter.