Questions For The Skeptics (Unbelievers)

by Zechariah 46 Replies latest jw friends

Realist

Yerusalyim,

honestly i never heard of that one!

i have to agree with seedy and remain a little sceptic about that story.

do you have by chance the names of the people who did the study?

Realist

funkyderek

Do not you believe in the power of prayer?

It may have some benefit for the person praying, in the same way that meditation appears to, but no more. Regarding the studies Yeru referred to, there have been many studies which show no significant benefit to prayer, but they rarely make tabloid headlines.
Do you celebrate Thanksgiving? If so why?
No, because I do not live in the USA.
Do you believe a law of reciprocity (reaping what you sow) exists? If so who or what enforces these laws?
I don't believe it exists as an inherent property of the universe, but "tit for tat" is a very successful evolutionary strategy and has been selected for many times.
Do you agree with the following concept?
Physical man and spirit man are two distinct entities integrated into one creature known as a hu/man or a man of the humus
No. Dualism seems wholly unnecessary. All the available evidence suggests that everything we are is contained in our physical bodies, and works entirely on natural principles.
Liberty

As someone else has already tried to explain to you, most of the skeptics here are "open minded" because we were exposed to years of study from both sides of these arguments. As JWs we close mindedly believed in the literal Bible as the word of God but when the internal contradictions and silliness of Bible literalism made us question our faith we studied the other side of the arguments as well. Your problem is that you yourself have Not studied the other side in detail, as is evidenced by your lack of understanding when it comes to evolution and your tooth count "problem". It is you who are close minded and one sided because you have not made a serious study of your opposition.
The very definition of being a skeptic is to be open to the evidence no matter where it takes you. Evidence and NOT blind faith is the hallmark of rational thought and free thinking as a skeptic. You need to take several years of University level classes on the subjects you disbelieve before you can dismiss them so easily. I've already spent years studying your Bible and the apologetics which surround it and then I spent years taking classes and doing independant study of the sciences. After looking at ALL the evidence it was clear which was physically provable and which was cultural baggage nonsense. You must make the same study before you can claim to know the answers. When you are prepared to present some evidence then I will be open to looking at it. I want to believe I will never die and that a super being cares about me but unfortunately all the evidence I've seen says that we live in a Universe guided by random neutral events where I will cease to be. This is harsh reality. Our beliefs or faiths do not change the facts. Reality exists whether we accept it or not. Ask the millions of sick and dying JWs if their years of faith in the New System of Things will stop their deaths. Those who pray and believe get old, sick, and die just like the pagans and skeptics. God's silence is just as deafening to us all.
Edited by - Liberty on 23 September 2002 10:42:16
Zechariah

Liberty.
You are very disingenuous to suggest skeptics are open-minded and not biased towards unbelief. I myself have not claimed a willingness to be open-minded and do not apologize for it. I will never accept anything as evidence that does not benefit me.
What I would like from skeptics is that they admit the same is true for them. Never will they accept as evidence anything that supports God existence for they have already preconcieved such a notion ridiculous. It is only the skeptic that pretends to appreciate being unsure. I benefit as long as I believe. My questions serves to help skeptics realize the full implications of what they have chosen to believe.
I am not a glutton for punishment. I am not going to allow anyone to convince me of something it is not in my benefit to believe it. If I am wrong about there being God though I believe he exists I am no worse off than before.
Despite my belief I still like the skeptics understand it is my GOD GIVEN right to believe as I choose. As is yours. All I suggest is you choose wisely. Not out of fear but only after a cost benefit analysis as one skeptic suggests.
Those who pray and believe get old, sick, anddie just like the pagans andskeptics. God's silence is just as deafening to us all.
They die happy though with the hope of everlasting life either spiritual or physical. All the time they spend alive is enhanced by their belief. My life is always enhanced when I have just one ticket for the lottery. The prospects of hitting it big helps me deal with all my problems and therefore adds joy to my life. You have to be in it to win it. We are only in it if we believe.
Zechariah
GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH
Edited by - zechariah on 23 September 2002 11:49:27
funkyderek

You are very disingenuous to suggest skeptics are open-minded and not biased towards unbelief.

Of course skeptics are biased towards "unbelief". Belief is something that happens only when the available evidence is significant. Do I believe in unicorns? No. Why not? Because I don't have enough evidence to support such a belief. It may or may not benefit me to believe in unicorns, but I cannot force myself to believe something that I don't really believe. For honest thinkers, belief is never a choice. Disbelief is the norm when it comes to supernatural phenomena. If it wasn't we'd believe anything.
I myself have not claimed a willingness to be open-minded and do not apologize for it. I will never accept anything as evidence that does not benefit me.
Ah, the "la-la-la I can't hear you" school of thought.
What I would like from skeptics is that they admit the same is true for them.
But it isn't. Skeptics believe only what the evidence compels them to believe, whatever the implications - the exact opposite of your philosophy.
Never will they accept as evidence anything that supports God existence for they have already preconcieved such a notion ridiculous.
Not ridiculous, just unlikely given the available evidence. New evidence causes skeptics to change their belief system.
It is only the skeptic that pretends to appreciate being unsure.
I, for one, don't appreciate being unsure about anything. That's precisely why I try to be utterly certain about what I believe, and why I believe in things only to the degree that the available evidence warrants.
I benefit as long as I believe.
How exactly?
My questions serves to help skeptics realize the full implications of what they have chosen to believe.
No they don't. They're a flimsy version of Pascal's Wager.
I am not a glutton for punishment. I am not going to allow anyone to convince me of something it is not in my benefit to believe it. If I am wrong about there being God though I believe he exists I am no worse off than before.
Perhaps for some people blissful ignorance is preferable to facing reality. But not for me.
Despite my belief I still like the skeptics understand it is my GOD GIVEN right to believe as I choose. As is yours. All I suggest is you choose wisely. Not out of fear but only after a cost benefit analysis as one skeptic suggests.
And this skeptic suggested precisely the opposite. Belief is not a cost-benefit analysis. Belief should only be based on evidence.
Edited by - funkyderek on 23 September 2002 11:50:14
Realist

hello zech,
that is funny although not completely unwise
i guess you agree with ignorance is bliss ?
question: suppose you have 1 $ bill in your right pocket...would you choose to believe that you have in fact a 100$ bill? you would just refuse to look at the bill so you wouldn't be disappointed?
most people don't deny the possibility that the universe has a deeper meaning respectively that soem higher being created it...but since there si no evidence for or against that one cannot be sure.
Sirona

It comes down to individual differences....differences in perception and reasoning, IMO.
One person who experiences something unexplainable will attribute that to a "mystical" or "spiritual" thing. Another person simply admits they just don't know. Another person will search endlessly for the scientific explanation that rules out the spiritual.
For instance, we had an earthquake here in the UK last night at 1am. It measured 4.8 - the strongest one for 10 years. When I woke up to a noise (banging) I thought we were being broken into. When my sister woke up, she thought firstly that she had a poltergeist because her bed was shaking! then she started to imagine aliens landing and all sorts!! (LOL shes an XFiles fan). My boyfriend woke up at home and his wardrobe was banging against the wall. Although it only lasted 15 seconds, he spent the next 15 minutes staring at it in fear....he thought there was someone or something inside it. LOL.
Here is where previous experience has a bearing on our beliefs and perceptions. Someone from a country where there are many earthquakes would have known immediately what it was and would have known what to do. Since I've probably experienced only one minor tremour in my whole life, I would naturally not think of the obvious straight away.
Then there may be a scenario where the ground shakes and its NOT an earthquake...but those who are inclined to think it is will automatically assume that, when a less likely event may have taken place. Lets face it, although women may say it often to appease their men, the earth does not move once a day in the UK lol.
We shouldn't rule things out because we don't "see" them, though. If someone living a thousand years ago had seen a television, they would be mystified as to what it was. If someone living a thousand years ago went around saying that there was an invisible force which when harnessed could be the source of great power.....they'd be told they were mad. Now we know that that is true - Electricity. Maybe so called "supernatural" things will be explained in the future by science. Maybe energies do exist that we just don't know a lot about yet. Maybe prayer does have an effect....who knows?
Sirona
Edited cause I said the silly comment that the earth doesnt move regularly! Doh.
Edited by - Sirona on 23 September 2002 12:21:45
Crazy151drinker

Of course I celebrate Thanksgiving!
Now granted, the whole Indian thing is a little worrisome, but originally we all got along! (until that whole land expansion/smallpox thing).
But now, its a time to get together with family and relax.
Any Swedes here drink gloog????? Its the Best!! GO PACKERS!
BeelzeDub

Do not you believe in the power of prayer?
Not any more!
When I was married, my wife had doubts that I was faithful to her. I was, but she said she could not shake the doubts.
In the bible it says: "God hates a divorcing" and "Anything asked of god that is his will, will be given"
I prayed to god to remove my wifes doubts since they were not true. If God hates a divorcing and it is his will that a marriage stay in tact, why would he not answer this prayer?
Her doubts never went away... she decided to divorce me based on those doubts.
God and I have not been on speaking terms since.
For those who believe in the power of prayer any logical explination for this lack of power?
Edited by - BeelzeDub on 23 September 2002 13:53:25
Liberty

Hi Zech,
You ask that, as a skeptic, I should admit that I am close minded and would refuse to look at any evidence for God's reality. If I did "admit" such a thing it would be a lie because I am happy to look at any evidence that God is real. Unfortunately, no one ever presents any and I've looked really hard. The Earth, on the other hand is literally full of evidence for evolution and a long history beyond the imagination of the Bible writers.
As far as your other point goes, if you only believe in God to hedge your bets then isn't this worse than honestly not believing at all? If I were God I would be more angry at the fakes than with honest disbelievers. Wouldn't God know you were serving Him "just in case"? I guess I don't understand your point. Also, why would God expect us to believe in Him anyway since He never communicates with us. Can I just show up one day and claim I'm your boss and then demand to know what you've done for me in the last 20 years and if I'm disatisfied I'm going to kill you all the while you never knew you were working for me nor did I ever tell you what I expected? This wouldn't be fair, would it? Yet this is what it would be like if God really expected us to worship Him and judged us without spelling out from the start in a clear way what is demanded and why.
Edited by - Liberty on 23 September 2002 16:22:13

Questions For The Skeptics (Unbelievers)

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