Help a lurking dub with doubts
by undercover 64 Replies latest watchtower scandals
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Crazy151drinker
Welcome to the Board.
Remember, the foundation of Truth has no cracks!
and more importantly
Fools Hate Knowledge- Jesus Christ
So, read read read read read read read read read read read read and ABSORBE all the info you can on the WT. There are many fabulous posts on this site. Search for stuff from Alan F., Amazing, and some of the other Smarty Pants around here and you'll learn alot. They have done tons of research and can provide you with tons of Info.
Enjoy the Board!
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Ephanyminitas
So if the elders call, Undercover, BE Smart. Keep you mouth shut.
This is exactly what I was thinking. Do what you must, but don't let them know about anything your know or that you're doing.
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Pathofthorns
Undercover,
I think you are on the right track. The pieces will fall into place in time.
Sometimes I kick myself for not seeing what seems so obvious now. But really, I saw it all along and just dismissed things and made excuses for things because I was afraid of the alternative - that it wasn't "the truth".
You already know it's not the truth but are at the point of trying to justify the good u feel you see in it. "Maybe God is still using this organization". "It all can't be bad. I know lots of good people in it".
There is a fear of what you will become or where you will end up when all of this is through. I assure you that however painful the present is and however uncertain the future is, you won't regret this journey.
Path
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mouthy
Undercover I know just how your feeling. I was over 20 yrs thinking it was the channel to God.
My advice to you is look onhttp:// Quotes.JehovahsWitnesses.com
http://Quotes.jehovahsWitnesses.com -I just wish I had all this help when I was kicked out-Because I dont believe Jesus came in 1914.
As to weather they at the top believe this is Gods channel-I believe they are just as under mindcontrol as we were. Why would anyone spend years doing what they do- There is no money for each personally-I dont think
I may be wrong- But I now believe there is a GOD..But I dont believe in religion- I have a relationship with Jesus after all I learned from scripture that Jehovah( I dont call him that now) said LISTEN TO MY SON -so I pray to Jesus- He is my Lord & Saviour. I still believe what scripture says. He paid it all.Said it is finished Your free to THINK- Yes some on here may be a bit cross at times- but they are hurting to. I have found the WT is a breeding ground for Atheists. But on this board we love UNconditionall. No matter what you believe. Do read Crises of conscience-Stay with prayer ( I am the old lady on board 75 years old. ) Some on here may not call me a lady- but I hope you will Blessings ((((HUG)))
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lisaBObeesa
hello undercover!
I try to weed through the most negative to look for facts and evidence, not opinion and mudslinging.
I can tell you are going to be fine!
My predicament in having lost faith in the Society is this: Does the GB really believe they are God's human channel for all of mankind to learn about his kingdom? Or is there some sinister conspiracy?
We can never really know unless we were able to get inside their heads, but Ray Fanzs book really made me lean to the conspiracy side. This is because I found out from reading the book things like:
New Light is decided by a 2/3 vote of the Governing Body.
Obviously, if they have to vote about it, and if they dont all vote the same, then GOD is not leading them. And they MUST know it.
Also, they have realized they were wrong about things and tried to cover those things up. Because of these FACTS, we KNOW THAT THEY KNOW they are not LED BY GOD.
However, to be fair, some of them could be deluded or perhaps insane with power and unable to see that if GOD were speaking through and to the GB, then all the GB members would ALL GET THE SAME MESSAGE, AND THE MESSAGE WOULD BE CORRECT!!!!!!!.
So, they are either CRAZY or EVIL. Hum
Personally, I think it is a combination of the two.
Is it to fleece millions of people to make them rich or powerful?
Rich, not so much. Power, yes. (my guess)
What do they gain by this notoriety?
See above.
The thing about committing yourself to the fact that the WTBS may not be God's organization is if they are not, then who is?
Or is there an earthly organization at all? God is a god of organization.
I dont think that there is such a thing as Gods One True Organization. And God is a god of organization is not in anyway proof that there is such a thing as 'Gods One True Organization' as the JWs teach it.
When you see all the so called "mind-control" evidence compiled and listed together from years of literature it makes me wonder, "Are they really that smart? Are they trying to control our very thinking?
I did a little reading about tactics that the WT uses in books that are not about the WT, and I came to the conclusion that they ARE that smart.
Or is just because of being no different than the rest of us(ideas and opinions change over time) and there is more than one man's thoughts going into the writing, that things just get muddled up?" If they were that smart, I can't see them getting caught in inconsistencies all the time.
Actually, if you think about it, for 90% of active witnesses at a given time, THEY (the GB) ARE NOT CAUGHT, EVER.
Some of the teachings are correct and have opened the door to people learning about the Bilbe, while others seem to be contrived, relying on old opinions and dogma. Am I being picky about things that will eventually get straightened out, or am I correct in sensing that something is very wrong?
I dont know. Do you think insisting on TRUTH instead of lies in your religion is being picky?
I have not read R. Franz's or C.O. Johansons books yet. I'm trying to figure a way of getting them locally, paying cash instead of charging over the Internet. Yea, a little paranoid. I know that's what some of you will say to do, is read these books.
Yes, read the Franz book for sure.
But I would like some input as to what finally made up your minds. Is there anyone else that had the same thoughts that I have now? What convinced you to believe as you do now?
For me, all I did was go to the library. I had heard people say that JW had changed their Bible. I decided to start with that issue and see for myself the facts. I pulled every bible off the library shelf, compared the verses that were questioned with the NWT, and researched what scholars had to say about these verses and why. I spent an afternoon, and by the time I left there was not a question in my mind. I had seen the facts for myself. They actually HAD changed the Bible to support their doctrines! Therefore they LIED and so were not The Truth.
Are some of you still active, afraid to commit and comment outloud because of the possibility of losing all former ties to friends and relatives? Is that not as hypocritical as some say the GB is?
This is a very difficult question. Is it morally wrong to fake it to keep your mother, father, brothers or sisters? My thinking is that if it was THE TRUTH, maybe it would be immoral to fake it. But it is not the truth, it is a FAKE and a SHAM, and our relatives are being TRICKED, and I for one dont want FAKE GB MEN taking my family away. If I can avoid that by just not saying anything, then of course I will. Perhaps I can help them out. If they are shunning me, I could never help them out.
As you can see, I am fairly confused over this. Do I jump on the bandwagon of saying the Society is full of mistakes just so I can be part of the World? Sounds like the easy way out.
It doesnt sound that way to me. It sounds difficult, not easy, to change your whole way of looking at the world and it sounds like the bandwagon is not a factor in your thinking but rather facts and evidence are the basis of your thinking. At least that is what you said at the beginning, right? Trust your mind, you are smart!
WELCOME TO THE BOARD!
-LisaBObeesa
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Flip
Are they(WTBTS) sincere in thinking they speak for God, or are they intentionally misleading people?
Why not both at the same time.
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breeze
undercover....
I understand completely your problem. I am exactly in the same position. I am certain that standing up or writing a letter to break ties with ORG is not wise. Like you, all of my friends and family are in the truth. I am also very new to this forum and love it so far very much. Yes, you must beware of some here, many are not even close to being an xjw. Never even been to a meeting yet will try to sound as though they are just stepping down from being a publisher. In the terminology of the DUBS, they are worldy and have no understanding of the real meaning of this site.
I too have struggled with the motives of the society. For many years I listen and believed the information and propaganda that the WTBTS published. I ask you were is all this money that has been collected for all of these years? No one in the ORG will talk about it because iit is a secret that if revealed would collapse the whole religion instantly. When you look at all this information that is on many web sites of x-jw's you will see many things that will prove that the ORG has an agenda and has hidden the truth from the brothers for many years.
Yes it does seem like the truth on the surface and especially if you aren't an independent thinker. Just stand back an think of that statement alone. Remember the WT studies about guarding against becoming an independent thinker. The society holds this group together by a thin thread. There are yet millions of dollars to be stolen from the brothers before this will all some to light. They will struggle mightly to keep it together.
I think, to answer your question about if the WTBTS is not the truth then who is the truth holder. I don't think that organized religion is the answer to worship. the world has become just too complicated, just look at were the society is with the abuse issue, they don't have qualified prople to help all of these people and there is so many problems that the ORG tries to deal with, that are just impossible. Oral sex, the blood issue, gays, disfellowshipping and male / female relationships, wife / husband problems that are very complicated even for medical specialists. The ORG can't even work out being a member of the UN, or ID cards in multiple countries, yikes, it don't work.........
Welcome, I am trying to help!!!
BREEZE
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jimbob
Here's one for ya to think about...............How come in the congregation, the accounts are read every month so everyone knows EXACTLY how much money came in, where it went, and how much is left over....(usually very little, ever notice how much more was for the congregation than for the WWW, guess we cared more about ourselves than the society...hmmmmmm) Anyway, how come that is never done on the Society's level?? How come they don't let the R&F know how much came in and where it went.....hmmmmmmmmmm. Maybe because we'd really know how much money they have and nobody would contribute anymore. We'd realize it'd be like Bill Gates asking for contributions so he can pay for daycare for his 3 kids and pay the mortgage. :)
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happysunshine
Hey-
BA2002- nice research, as always.
Undercover-
You're either a Troll, as Rodbar astutely mentioned, or you're working through you're feelings of confusion and guilt. If you're a Troll - Fuck Off. Otherwise, I'll finish this out as if you're legit.I have so much I want to say, but I'm not an articulate writer, so bear with me. And there is much more to this than I have to say.
I'm assuming you were also born into it as I was. This affects our perception greatly, as factors other than those related to the issue of God and religion influence the way we look at the organization. What our parents did, our childhood friends are doing, or what we have to lose are totally unrelated to the issues of religious truth. Truth stands on its own. Things other than truth require mechanisms to hold them in place. A person 'encouraged' to make decisions by, in essence, holding their family at gunpoint is an example.
For me, even just looking at the issues freaked me out too much. Its not just about religion. Its about you're mother, your father - their parents. Your friends. Childhood ideas of good/bad, ideal situations, romance. Your brother, your sister. All the time, pain, suffering, and learning you and your family went through. Your own personal attitudes and the foundations for them. Dealing with this stuff ALONE is enough to give anyone a hard time, apart from the religious issue.
No one can tell you what to believe. You have to figure it out for yourself, and believe me, you wouldn't want it any other way.
Here are some things that worked for me: You have to identify some basic things that you believe in. You have to identify some points of reference. This will also help you keep your sanity in the face of psychological, social, emotional, and religious challenges that are all lumped together as spiritual things.
Something that also helped me was to look at other, unrelated examples/groups. These are good because all the other unrelated stuff, like ...but my parents are Witnesses and theyre good people... doesnt interfere. You are relatively objective. I saw similar patterns/methods being used/ identified all over the place: social psychology; sports psychology; marketing; Mormon Church; Jim Jones; etc. etc. I remember researching several sociology and psychology books for a project on cult dynamics which was totally unrelated to Witnesses, and it just clicked.
About being lazy, well thats up to you. The Witnesses are like any other group. Some people would leave because they are lazy, others because they have concerns. Not being enthusiastic about what youre doing because you have ethical concerns is a lot different than just being lazy.
About the book, I just went to a local Christian bookshop and they ordered it for me. Cash. Total anonymity.
About the confrontation thing. It is NOT a fair fight. It is about allegiance to the Watchtower Society (inc.). After much beating about the bush, theyll actually admit this. I am not kidding. At least in any setting were anyone is coming to you as a Witness.
A final word. I gave being a Witness everything I had. I ground myself into the ground living it. I know I didnt jump any bandwagons, have an impure heart, or anything else. It didnt work. I left with a clean conscience. Im lucky to be alive. -J