by Englishman 124 Replies latest jw friends
Tina,
Ive never read anything by Wendy Kaminer. I'll have to check her out on Amazon. I just finished a big batch of books, so I'll be ordering another batch soon. Unfortunately my wish list is getting pretty huge now!
Thanks,
rem
PS: I just checked out the reviews in Amazon - her book looks great!
Hello again,
I appears that everyone is becoming more civil, in the discussion. One side had used the word "ignorant" and appologizied for it. Of course, someone on the other side used the word as well. That kind of talk has diminished. As someone posted recently, the word "doubter" is troublesome and does resonate with the old Witness days. It implies that you have the truth and as a doubter, I don't. The word "dogmatic" bothers me too. If I contend that the earth is a sphere, I don't think that makes me dogmatic. I do have conclusions about psychic phenomena that I firmly believe, which has a basis in known scientific fact and the support of empirical research.
Mommy postulates that there may be mechanisms for the transmission of information from one person to another or even perhaps from one person to the spirit world. If these mechanisms become known, I would be the first to accept these findings. I would assume the the others who expressed views similiar to mine would take the same position. However, to accept conclusions based on existing knowledge does not make one dogmatic.
The subject of one person's unique experience is probalmatic as far as determining whether experience is phsychic or a matter of coincidence. For those, however, who claim that they consistently have these powers, this can be objectively evaluated. For example, if someone says they can fore tell events in the near future, their predictions can be compared to actual outcomes. Also, if someone claims that they can receive messages from someone else at a given point in time, these to can be studied. As you will find, when you read the books suggested by rem, the proof of pyschic abilities have not be forth coming.
I am trying to state my ideas as clearly and as rationally as possible. I am not trying to attack anyone or convert anyone. However, if anyone believes in spending lots of money for getting advice from psychics. I would say, let the buyer beware.
Englishman,
I have a friend who can do the hands thing with pain. She put her hands on my back one day and the pain was gone for awhile.
Interestingly enough, her hands were flaming red and very hot to the touch after she did it.
TW
Chuck,
Thank you for taking the time and energy to make such a thoughtful and informative post.
I look forward to your posts mainly because of your insights and the way you wield that 'intellectual smartass' sense of humor. But also because I always see something in a new light when I am finished reading.
Galileo was labeled a heretic for his views and assertions. Most great minds are mocked for their unconventional ideas. But where would we be today without Galileo or Copernicus or such persons? Testing theories and ideas requires taking risks, and these people took those risks, aware of the fact that they would be persecuted at the hands of the church. But therin lies true genius in the willingness to forge a new path and make people think instead of just accept. Religion is such a snare because it requires it's followers to be just that. Followers. Where is the genius in that? I gain courage from learning about people such as Galileo. It makes me all the more courageous to stand behind my convictions, even if they differ from those of my family. So thank you Chuck for bringing these important issues to light.
riz
(risk taker class)
Ex-pat,
I AM throwing a party - a big barbie anyway - around my birthday on July 6.
ALL posters are welcome, there`s bags of cheap accommodation available in WSM.
englishman.
I think Carl Sagan said it best: Yes, they laughed at Galileo, but they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
The lesson from these tales is simple: supernaturalism bad, naturalism good.
The progress of science has been exclusively away from supernaturalism towards naturalism. Supernaturalism does not have a single point in its favor, ever.
Those who take scientific progress as an argument that somehow their supernaturalistic ideas will be vindicated, has totally misunderstood what science is about. It's not about holding a fantasy and wait for science to come to the same conclusion they already hold. That never happens.
I also laugh at the assertions that rationalists are somehow the bad guys here. Perhaps you should read the thread? Anyone can see that supernaturalists started out defensively as hell, "everybody who disagree with me are just bigoted ignorant doubters", and when finally a few critical arguments made its way into the thread, supernaturalists responded with fierce, personal attacks. Supernaturalists are mostly the same, be they new agers or JWs.
- Jan
--
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen"
-- Albert Einstein
Some here have stated that they or others they know can relieve pain as their hands become warm on or near another person's body. They stated the "what" of the situation. Science is interested in the "why" and "how" of the situation. To claim that science is "rational and cold", I think obscures the issue. If this phenomena is real, it strikes me as an important area of investigation, so that these healing powers could be more widely used. Isn't the history of science and medicine, one with a very humanitarian objective of reducing human suffering? To not study this phenomena of purported pain reduction, I think, is "cold."
On the subject of channeling which is a modern term for the old spirit medium concept. James Randi has ofered a millian dollars to anyone who can demonstrate this ability. This is not a bet. There is no cost to the person accepting the offer. So far no one has succeeded, just as no one demonstrated these powers in Hodinni's presence. Of course, in the future, somone might.
In the discussion of Galleleo and Copernicus, it should be noted that their contribution, was to take existing data and build a theory that was simpler than the existing one and had more explainitory power. Someone, not mentioned was Kepler, who built upon the work of Gallelio and Copernicus. By changing one assumption he further simplified and improved the theory. When parapsychology follows this approach, then we will see where it takes us. So far, this has not been done.
Some here have stated that they or others they know can relieve pain as their hands become warm on or near another person's body. They stated the "what" of the situation. Science is interested in the "why" and "how" of the situation. To claim that science is "rational and cold", I think obscures the issue. If this phenomena is real, it strikes me as an important area of investigation, so that these healing powers could be more widely used. Isn't the history of science and medicine, one with a very humanitarian objective of reducing human suffering? To not study this phenomena of purported pain reduction, I think, is "cold."
On the subject of channeling which is a modern term for the old spirit medium concept, James Randi has ofered a millian dollars to anyone who can demonstrate this ability. This is not a bet. There is no cost to the person accepting the offer. So far, no one has succeeded, just as no one demonstrated these powers in Hodinni's presence. Of course, in the future, somone might.
In the discussion of Galleleo and Copernicus, it should be noted that their contribution, was to take existing data and build a theory that was simpler than the existing one and had more explainitory power. Someone, not mentioned was Kepler, who built upon the work of Gallelio and Copernicus. By changing one assumption he further simplified and improved the theory. When parapsychology follows this approach, then we will see where it takes us. So far, this has not been done.
By the way, Kepler's simple change was to assume that the planets traveled in elipses, not in circles.
Larc, the "healing touch" is beginning to be used rather extensively by nurse practitioners in many hospitals. Even though not totally understood, it is recognized that patients receiving these treatments heal faster than those who do not.
I've used this myself on ill and injured animals, and the results are very gratifying.
RHW,
There are simpler explianations. You love your animals very much. Your meer presence and soothing words may help them recover. It is known that sick people who have loving support recover faster than those who don't. The presence and extra time spent by a caring nurse may, in and of itself, be beneficial, without resorting to terms that imply the extraordinary and unexplainable.
In medical research, bouble blind experiments and a control group taking pacebos is a necessary precaution. Why? Because knowledge of the intervention by either the doctor or the patient can cause improvement and simply taking something you believe in can cause improvement even if it is inert. This speaks favarably for the power of the mind in the curative process, but does not imply mystical powers on the part of the interventionist.
