I Think That I Chose My Parents.

by Englishman 124 Replies latest jw friends

mommy

Again I say to those with different views:
Until you come up with scientific explanations researching my thoughts, my feeling, and my experiences. You really are just spouting your ignorance, by saying that feelings, thoughts. and experiences need "proof"
wendy
rem

Some good books on the subject:
Michael Shermer, "Why People Believe Weird Things"
Carl Sagan, "The Demon Haunted World"
Robert Park, "Voodoo Science"
James Randi, "An Encyclopedia of Claims, Frauds, and Hoaxes of the Occult and Supernatural"
James Randi, "Flim Flam!"
Kendrick Fraiser, "Encounters With the Paranormal : Science, Knowledge, and Belief"
rem
Esmeralda

To Rem:
I get a sick feeling while reading some of these posts because it just provides even more evidence of how gullible
we can be.
Why does reading differing opinions make you feel sick? Is it that important for everyone to share
your viewpoint?
I guess it makes people feel good or special
This is an assumption on your part. Can you know, for certain, how I feel unless you ask me? These experiences
have made me feel neither different, good, nor special. They just occurred.
You put everyone who responded to this thread into groups: believers and nonbelievers. That sounds like
JW reasoning to me. You have all the reasons to justify your beliefs, not allowing room for others
to believe differently, or, of course, they must be wrong. Which is shown in this quote:
And once someone brings up doubt or scientific research on the subject that does not coincide with that belief, that
person is castigated as if there is something wrong with him! You only allow information that affirms your beliefs, but don’t
take into account evidence that shows flaws in the belief.
Castigated? You just said before that reading my beliefs, and those of others in this thread made you sick. Isn't
that you, castigating the rest of us? I am not saying you're wrong. I didn't say Jan was wrong. I just said
our opinions differ and we should be able to express that without being disrespectful to each other.
I respect your opinion, as I have said to Jan and would say to all the others who view things more
scientifically. To me, this thread is not even about the topic of esp or whatever anymore.
To me this thread has become a prime example of intolerance for the beliefs of others, when
they differ from your own. I will not participate in such a debate over who has more evidence and
such, because everyone's reality is different. You've surely heard the phrase "Your focus determines your
reality." That quote was restated to me by my neurologist, who I assure you is probably the most
single-mindedly scientific gentleman I have ever met.
I am simply saying that I respect you and wish that you could express your varying opinion without telling
anyone that they 'make you sick'.
If I wanted to be among people who believed that way, I would go
back to the Kingdom Hall, and to my family. Instead I am seeking a life of tolerance: where I don't
need to be right, and my opinion is no more, or less valid than my fellowmans.
If we all believed the same things, the world would be dreadfully boring. Diversity is what makes things
interesting. Thank you for taking the time to share your viewpoint with us.
Have a peaceful day :)
Essie
The Four Agreements:
Be Impeccable With Your Word
Don't Take Anything Personally
Don't Make Assumptions
Always Do Your Best
rem

Wendy,
I don’t think that anyone is discounting your experiences. I think that what we are saying is that there are other less extraordinary explanations for these things. Nothing that has been said so far couldn’t be explained by prosaic means, including coincidence and even exaggeration after the fact (human memory is a very funny thing). The brain is very easy to fool – just watch a magician for a while. If you didn’t know any better, you’d think that he was using supernatural means – but he’s just tricking your brain.
There is absolutely no evidence for New Age explanations or ESP. Scientific, double blind experiments have been performed time and time again. These experiments always come out disappointingly negative for the ESP supporters. If it were such a real and widespread phenomenon, then we should be able to measure it and prove its existence. So far no one has provided any real evidence in its behalf other than anecdotal (which is not really evidence at all).
Going back to your nightmare analogy. You are correct – if you had a nightmare, a scientist wouldn’t be able to see what it was. But we are not talking about things that only go on within your head. We are talking about a phenomenon that somehow interacts with other objects I the real world. How does information about someone being hurt travel from his or her body to your mind? There has to be some mechanism for that – but no one has proposed any measurable, verifiable theory to explain it.
This is an extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Someone saying they had a nightmare is not an extraordinary claim – it’s quite common and we all experience them. Someone saying that they can feel “bad” energy fields or that they are psychic is making an extraordinary claim, which must be supported by evidence. It would be like me saying I have an invisible pink unicorn living in my head – now disprove it! You can’t disprove it, but it is an extraordinary claim that should not be believed without evidence. Until I could provide evidence of the invisible pink unicorn in my head (other than anecdotal – because how can you know what’s in my head?), then there would be no reason to believe such an extraordinary claim. New Age phenomena are exactly the same.
Now I could say that I know my invisible pink unicorn exists because it talks to me – even though you can’t hear it. You could choose to believe that, but I don’t think you would. You would, instead, form a more prosaic explanation that maybe I was hallucinating, or maybe I was just joking around, or that I was hearing voices from some other source – not an invisible pink unicorn. To me the experience is real, but you know that there is a better explanation for the phenomenon than I’m suggesting.
All we are suggesting is to take a look at the well-researched alternate explanations for such experiences. You may be surprised at how much research actually has been done on this – I know I was. If you want to stand there with your hands over your ears saying – I don’t want to hear that – then that is your choice, but I don’t think it’s the wisest course. And you certainly don’t have any basis to say that people who have done the research are somehow doing something harmful by bringing this to everyone’s attention.
rem
larc

Hi Folks,
I was going to stay out of this, and even though I am in rem's camp, I think name calling is not good. I have not read the books that he cites, but I do have a one hour video by James Randi, called "Secrets of the Psychics" He demonstrates quite clearly that psychic powers in the cases he studied simply was not supported. In the 1920's Hudini, studied telekinesis and spirit mediums and also found them to be devoid of special powers. Both Randi and Hodini were professional magicians and knew how to insure the abscence of trickery. (Generally, scientists are not good at this) I enjoy a good magic show, but when people claim special powers, I think this is unethical, if they are using magic tricks.
Now, for the personal experiences that several have expressed here, I can't comment, and I am not disparaging anyone who has had very unusual experiences.
perfectpie

Rem, very well put, lucid and thoughtful.
mommy

Rem,
Thank you for replying, I can understand your viewpoint. I would like to just say one thing. Back in the 1800's and early 1900's people that heard voices or showed signs of, what we now know as mental illness, were thrown into institutes. They were neglected and treated as animals, some even called demon possessed. Science was able to prove that most of these people were suffering from a chemical imbalances in their brains. With the help of medication, they were able to rejoin society and have a healthy life.
Just maybe the feelings or possibly hormones(chemicals) that are experienced by so many haven't been discovered yet. We may have come a long way, but there are too many unexplainables to say we have all the answers.
I am sorry if I resorted to name calling . My first post here I said that this is a very touchy, personal subject of mine. And by the way I reacted you can tell.
I am new to the world of the internet, and to forums(open discussions) I just found it myself to be more peaceable to stay away from a thread that I don't agree with. Unless imminent harm is to come from those involeved. Why get involved and disagree with a group of people that are discussing something? There may be more out there that would like to join in on the conversation, but now feel threatened that their views will become laughed at(and yes that is how I felt)
I am glad that you are able to show us your point of view and will check out the information you have suggested.
Sorry I have to say one more thing...If you really think you heard a pink unicorn speaking to you, wouldn't it be a wonderful feeling to know someone else had the same experience?
wendy
rem

Esmeralda,
Why does reading differing opinions make you feel sick? Is it that important for everyone to share
your viewpoint?
I probably didn't explain myself well. What makes me feel sick is when I see ignorance – just like I think you might feel frustrated inside because your sister believes all of that JW garbage. Now I don’t know if you feel that way or not, but I have a hard time believing that you think her beliefs are A-OK. The problem here is that the opinions that are being proposed on this thread are uninformed opinions. There is such a thing is fact and fiction – certain things are factually correct and are supported by evidence and others are not.
I respect someone’s opinion when it is an informed opinion. That’s not to say that they have to agree with me, but at least they should look at the evidence before saying their beliefs have more merit than mine. If they can support their opinion with facts, then that is an opinion that I respect – even if I don’t agree. It is important to me that people don’t just go believing stuff that is not based in reality – I don’t think superstition is a healthy thing. Of course, that is only my opinion.
This is an assumption on your part. Can you know, for certain, how I feel unless you ask me? These experiences
have made me feel neither different, good, nor special. They just occurred.
There is always a reason why people believe things – belief is a survival mechanism that has been molded by evolution. If your belief didn’t benefit you, then you wouldn’t hold to it without looking at the facts. So I didn’t enumerate every single reason why someone would believe something – that was not the point. The point was that it is so easy to do the research and find out facts about the subject, there must be some reason people choose not to do it.
You put everyone who responded to this thread into groups: believers and nonbelievers. That sounds like
JW reasoning to me. You have all the reasons to justify your beliefs, not allowing room for others
to believe differently, or, of course, they must be wrong. Which is shown in this quote
That was the context of the discussion – obviously in real life that’s not how I look at things. I’m not the one saying that others are wrong just because I say so – I’m saying that “believers” (as you put them – not me) would do well to look at the other side of the issue.
Castigated? You just said before that reading my beliefs, and those of others in this thread made you sick. Isn't
that you, castigating the rest of us? I am not saying you're wrong. I didn't say Jan was wrong. I just said
our opinions differ and we should be able to express that without being disrespectful to each other.
What made me sick was that “believers” seemed to be closing their minds to any evidence that was contrary to their experiences. They were the ones saying that our scientific facts were not welcome in this discussion. Perhaps castigates was too harsh a word, but it was the only thing that came into my head at the time.
I am simply saying that I respect you and wish that you could express your varying opinion without telling
anyone that they 'make you sick'.
I hope you now have a better understanding of what makes me sick – it’s not people or informed ideas – it’s people making assertions without evidence and saying that my ideas are less worthy because they don’t coincide with theirs (which happens to be demonstrably uninformed).
Challenging beliefs can lead to emotionally charged discussions. My recommendation is to take a step back and try to find out WHY we believe what we do and whether it is truly grounded in fact or fiction.
rem
Englishman

Rem,
The whole point of this post is to point out that, apart from what is loosely called "reincarnation", that some people feel that they have a sixth sense.
A sixth sense has nothing to do with physical proof, our other 5 senses do that. A sixth sense that was provable would automatically devalue it to the level of the other 5!
Re chakra`s, please dont label me a "new ager", but there have been times that I have been able to sense pain in anothers body and I have been able to pull it away from the person. I can feel the heat grow in my palms occasionally and this heat can be healing. It`s not something that happens very often, maybe once every couple of years, so it doesnt occupy my thoughts very much, but how could I agree with your post after experioencing something like that?
Englishman.
RedhorseWoman

I can definitely understand Jan's, Rem's, and PerfectPie's assertions. These experiences seem to be totally bizarre (and, in fact, they are). However, they happen. More than once I've had something occur that has left me totally nonplussed.
I haven't had experiences along this line because I believed in them, but rather I've come to a point where I'm willing to look into these areas because experiences occurred in spite of my original disbelief.
Am I willing at this point to state that all paranormal events are, in fact, absolutely true? No. All I'm saying is that I no longer automatically discount something that doesn't fall into the slot of scientific.
Additionally, much of today's "science" was yesterday's "sorcery".

I Think That I Chose My Parents.

Share this