The "Ransom Sacrifice" short version.

by Norm 103 Replies latest jw friends

  • JAVA
    JAVA

    Jan,

    But this should not be possible if God were omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omniponent. So, He must lack at least one of these characteristics. However, all of these characteristics are essential to God. A being is not God if it lacks one of them. Hence, God does not exist.

    This is an interesting thread, and I appreciate all parties hanging in there as it goes along. The above quote more or less says God must be 1)all-knowing 2)all-charitable/kindness 3)allmighty in order to be God. If missing any of these characteristics, he/she can't be God. Why?

    For example, let's say God is allmighty, and all-knowing, but doesn't give a rip about kindness. Socrates' which came first question, "Are certain actions good because God commands them, or does God command them because they are good" begs me to ask, what if God is not good/kind or is just nonbenevolent? How does that scratch Him/Her from the God for a Day theme park?

    --JAVA
    counting time at the Coffee Shop

  • GinnyTosken
    GinnyTosken

    Mike,

    I'm curious. How many people possessing a fair amount of common sense do you believe have carefully read the Bible, along with its context, while also praying for God's help in understanding it? How many of these same people have done their best to put aside all of their preconceived notions and prejudices while doing their reading? Given the many people who have tried, why do you think there is so little consensus about how the Bible should be interpreted? Wouldn't God lead them to see things in the same way? Or do you believe that interpreting the Bible is a very personal matter, between oneself and God?

    I am curious, too, about what one does when Jesus's words appear to contradict themselves. For example, at Matthew 12:30 he says, "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters." At Mark 9:40 he says "Whoever is not against us is for us."

    As for being a child of God, that is a comforting idea. I find it difficult to reconcile this idea of being a loved child of God's with chapter 9 in Romans that describes us as lumps of clay with which God can do what he will, sometimes determining before we are born, before we have done anything good or bad, whether he will show us mercy or harden our hearts. This is not a healthy father-child relationship as we understand it today, but appears to hark back to the days when children were property and a "righteous" man like Lot could offer his daughters to an angry mob to be raped. Considering the original topic of this post and what God is said to have required of his firstborn son, I suppose I should not be surprised.

    Jesus asks us to forgive others, to overlook their transgressions, to turn the other cheek. Why could not God do the same?

    Ginny

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Ginny,

    I did not say that all people who have common sense, who pray for God's help in understanding the Bible and do their best to put aside all of their preconceived notions while reading it would end up understanding all portions of scripture in the same way. I said I thought that those doing so would be able to determine which parts of the Bible are merely the personal opinions of Bible writers. Understanding all portions of scripture in the same way is another matter.

    So far as what you should do when you run across an apparent Bible contradiction, I would advise that you study the text in question and try to resolve the matter on your own. I believe that nearly all such Bible difficulties can be resolved with a little study by someone possessing the "common sense" I spoke of, provided that the person possessing that "common sense" actually wants to find an answer to their question and is not just trying to find apparent contradictions in the scriptures for the purpose of criticizing the Bible.

    For instance, let's take the apparent contradiction you have run across. Most people who have read the four gospels know that Jesus Christ's bold claims for himself, along with his authoritative style of teachings, made him a very polarizing personality. People either loved Jesus or they hated him. It was not long after Jesus began his ministry that people divided into two camps. People quickly became either supporters of Jesus Christ or opposers of Jesus Christ. Thus if people were not with Jesus they were against him. And if people were not against Jesus and his disciples they were for Jesus and his disciples.

    When I first got on the Net I had many E-mail conversations with Bible critics. They would usually first present me with two or three so-called "Bible contradictions." They would tell me that if I could help them resolve those few "contradictions" then they might be able to seriously consider what the Bible has to say about Jesus Christ. But after I clearly showed them that the "Bible contradictions" they had presented me were really not contradictions at all they only threw more of such "contradictions" at me. And so it went. Sadly, it seems that for many people discussing the Bible with Christians is only a game. Quite often it seems the only real object of the game is to have fun poking and jabbing Christians. A similar but much more deadly version of this game was often played in ancient Rome.

    Lately I have limited myself to discussing only one supposed "Bible contradiction" per post or E-mail. After that I encourage people to try to find answers to their own questions by reading a few good Bible commentaries. By the way, if you do so, you will find that Romans chapter nine can be understood quite differently than the way in which you now understand it.

    You wrote: Jesus asks us to forgive others, to overlook their transgressions, to turn the other cheek. Why could not God do the same?

    He does. "For God has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." (Col. 1:13,14)

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Java,

    I believe Jan's arguments are designed only to prove that the God of the Bible, who is said to be all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful, does not exist. You seem to be asking if he believes it is possible that a Supreme Being, other than the one described in the Bible, may exist and if he believes it is possible that this other Supreme Being may have created our universe. That's an interesting question and I will look forward to reading Jan's response.

    For there are many people who believe our universe must have had a Creator but, having little respect for the Bible, they do not believe the God described therein could be that Creator. I don't believe Jan is one of these people. But for him to offer arguments proving that our universe could not have been created by a Creator who "doesn't give a rip about kindness" would be a pretty tough thing to do. An atheist's typical response to the challenge, "Prove there is no God," is "Prove invisible pink unicorns do not exist."

    Their point is that some negatives are very difficult to prove. Of course, comparing the possible existence of a Creator with the possible existence of invisible pink unicorns is not a fair comparison. For we have absolutely no evidence for the existence of invisible pink unicorns. While we have much alleged evidence for the existence of a Creator. Several books have been written chock full of information which their authors tell us constitutes very strong evidence that our universe was designed and created by a super-intelligent designer/creator. These so-called "design characteristics," are said to not only provide evidence of intelligent design of life on earth, but also of virtually every aspect of the earth itself, the moon, our solar system, our galaxy and our universe.

    I have been impressed with the evidence offered in such books and unimpressed with the replies atheists have given to the abundant evidence of design presented in them.

  • stephenw20
    stephenw20

    Nothing suggests,
    that "life" is over when the physical is gone

    if the self evolved creator came from nothing, and we from him/her then upon end of physical life if we are left with nothing is that not what the creator started with......then are we not him

    we all have spirit in us...there is little to deny that..........this "spirit " is where it is at.......... not in this physical thing called body.........

    this body and this earth can be thought of as an education..when you get past right or wrong good or bad pleasure and pain....

    you get to another level of BEING......one that is more in line with spirit...and maybe even with god.........

    there is nothing to suggest we where ever put on this earth for peace and kindness.........man was unconcious ....... be fore he sinned as was mentioned by the serpent and then again by the creator b4 man was banished form the garden.......

    perfection and spirit go hand in hand..........its been shown on at least three occaisons with perfect being and god looking on......... the physcial perfect body can die.........

    a toast to the spirit

    caio~

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Steven,

    You made some good points. And those points, I think, are very relevant to Jan's charges that the God of the Bible could not be the loving God described therein because of what Jan calls "natural evil." By "natural evil" Jan refers to things in nature which cause people pain and death. Things like disease, floods, earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. Jan's position maintains that the all-loving God described in the Bible would have carefully designed mankind's environment to make sure it was free of all elements which would cause people pain and death.

    But such an argument is only valid if we understand the Bible to teach that God intended for the human race as physical people to live forever on earth. This is JW theology, but is it really a teaching supported by the Bible? No, it is not. The fact of the matter is that the Bible clearly teaches that God created the human race mortal. God created us to die.

    The Genesis account clearly indicates that Adam and Eve were created mortal with a dying nature just like us. The story of Adam and Eve told in Genesis makes clear that their being able to live forever was not a part of their original physical nature. Rather, Adam and Eve's ability to live forever depended entirely on their eating from a tree "in the middle of the garden" of Eden, "the tree of life". (Genesis 2:9) Genesis tells us that Adam and Eve were going to be allowed to continue to eat from that tree only if they passed a God given test, a test which we are told they failed. After failing that test God expelled Adam and his wife from the Garden of Eden and prevented them from ever again eating from "the tree of life."

    Genesis indicates that had Adam and Eve been allowed to continue eating from "the tree of life" their lives would have been prolonged indefinitely. (Genesis 3:22-24) But when God prevented them from ever again eating from "the tree of life" they died what were apparently natural deaths. A careful reading of the Genesis account shows us that living forever would have been as unnatural for Adam and Eve as it would now be for us.

    Genesis does not indicate that Adam and Eve originally had eternal life programmed into their genetic codes by God and later had their genetic codes reprogrammed by God in order to remove eternal life from those codes. Rather, Genesis indicates that Adam and Eve would have lived forever only if God had graciously given them eternal life from an outside source, "the tree of life."

    Of course, that "tree of life" was meant to picture Jesus Christ.

    God was going to give Adam and Eve eternal life from an outside source, "the tree of life," only if they passed a very simple test. And the Bible tells us that we will be given eternal life from an outside source, Jesus Christ, only if we pass a very simple test. That test is to simply believe in our hearts that Christ's death was sufficient payment to buy every human being God's full forgiveness, forgiveness for both our sinful nature and our sinful acts.

    So, since God created us to die and death is not a pleasant experience, would God have carefully designed our natural environment to be completely free of anything that might cause human beings pain and death? No, He would not have. The fact of the matter is, since God created us to die, he would have had to create a natural environment for us that contained things such as disease, floods, earthquakes and volcanic eruptions to make sure that we would die. For all deaths are caused by something. The fact is, there is no such thing as death by old age. Everyone dies either as a result of some sort of disease, as a result of some sort of accident - natural or otherwise - or as a result of the violent act of another human being. So, God would have only created a natural environment which contained nothing that might kill us if he intended for us to live forever on earth as physical people. But as you point out, that was not His intention.

  • stephenw20
    stephenw20

    Mike,

    If i made some points thats wonderful..but just because evil exists does not mean love cant or does not.

    life cant be based on pain or reward..it simply is ...we simply are

    We have night and we have day...they oppose each other.......in an energy sense without a negative charge there is no positive one...a ground is always needed......

    the test if you will Adam and EVE failed is one of WILL (6th Chakra) and if you notice ..this is the same one Jesus Passed ..always saying not my own will but he who sent me.......

    for Adam and Eve to live forever , INMO , had nothing to do with the eating of the TREE it had to do with the SUBMISSION of WILL and developing the realtionship with god
    ....but this is just my opininion. I will say , that as catastrophic as it is made to be..........not once did GOD say I am angry, I hate you or I will abandon you......... he made coats for them............they were like disobedient children.........

    you may think dying is unpleasant , but in our world in our universe, it is possible to get past the idea that the physical death is the end........start developing spirit now and when you need to manage it later you ll know how........

    then it is not an end.....and this life here was just an education....... just like it was for Jesus........

    check out myss.com for some interesting discussions on this

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Stephen,

    You wrote: the test if you will Adam and EVE failed is one of WILL (6th Chakra).

    Sorry, I don't know anything about Chakras. I'm not into that New Age stuff. I prefer to stick with the Rock of Ages.

  • stephenw20
    stephenw20

    Mike,
    Chakras are old world stuff

    and they are in your body , so they might interest you..

    or not as the case may be

    if it is of interest at all
    see the following
    http://myss.com/myss/home.asp?

  • JAVA
    JAVA

    aChristian,

    I believe Jan's arguments are designed only to prove that the God of the Bible, who is said to be all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful, does not exist.

    Yes, knew that when I brought up the question:

    ...God must be 1)all-knowing 2)all-charitable/kindness 3)allmighty in order to be God. If missing any of these characteristics, he/she can't be God. Why?

    As an Agnostic, I don't claim knowing what I don't know. Limiting God to the 3 biblical definitions above creates many problems that's difficult to ignore. If "all-charitable/kindness" was removed from the Christian definition of God, then their argument would be stronger. A simple example is this:

    If God created the sparrow and the hawk, it seems disingenuous suggesting God cares and remembers each fallen sparrow. As the sparrow feels the pain of being ripped apart, as it's little ones are left starving in the nest, I'm sure the sparrow finds little comfort knowing God is "all-kindness."

    I could continue in detail with various illustrations, but I think you see the point. Playing scriptural gymnastics to paint the obvious in another color doesn't help the Christian concept of God. Take out the "God is all-kindness" definition, and your vision of God wouldn't go against what the eye can see.

    --JAVA
    counting time at the Coffee Shop

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit