Ray Franz Key Witness?! (page 8)

DJ

Franz supports the WT policy on child abuse. He is the author of the two eye witness rule as well as the slander issue that prevents anyone from warning another of child abuse in the congregation. It is interesting that WT is willing to fight to the last man standing for a policy that in large part was founded by their biggest apostate.
Ray Franz is no friend to silentlambs, he makes no effort to support child abuse survivors, he has more than once told many people that he sees no problem with WT policy on abuse. In my opinion he is covering up for something he does not wish to reveal.

Just2laws,

By Bill making the above statements, it seems that it is NOT simply that a high profile xjw will not get on the bandwagon, as you put it.

I don't know who is right and who is wrong in this discrepancy. I do see that Bill feels that Ray Currently supports the wt policy. In another statement here, Bill said that HE spoke to him, personally.

With regard to Bill's opinion about Ray covering up something.......hmmm, it would be truly horrible to learn that Ray may be a silentlamb because of his Uncle Freddy. Who the heck knows anymore? I sure hope not.

VeniceIT

Wow I don't get on the board for a few days and all hell breaks lose!!!

I love how people are ready to judge both Ray and Bill without perhaps knowing either one of them. Have you talked to BOTH of them PERSONALY on these matters???

Do you know both of their objectives? feelings?? stance?????

Ray wrote a couple of great books 15+ years ago. Since then he has not been involved in any other exjw venture. I'm not condeming him for that, that is his choice and his right.

On the other had if you had a movement going in which you have devoted ALL of your resources and time, and time away from family at GREAT cost to you and your family not only financailly but also emotionally it perhaps could be frustrating to you if you knew someone could really help your cause, and help the children, but they aren't.

Now I agree you can't and shouldn't force people to your cause, but if Ray does know something I could see how it would be frustrating for Bill and the Silentlamb cause that he chooses to remain silent.

"remain silent' I belive is a term used to say that he is not talking 'publicy about' the issue, but has talked to certain ones privately.

I'm not agreeing with or disagreeing with anything anyone has said I would just like to bring some other sides and objectives into the picture. I also don't think that everythign everybody says needs to be nitpicked from each post, a post should be read in it's entirety because that does effect the tone and there for the 'meaning' behind any said words.

I also think that if you don't know either way then it's best to keep your opinions down until you do have all the facts. I know we all want to see the Silentlambs org be successful, so I think we need to pull together instead of tear apart.

Ven

ISP

Ray wouldn't be a key witness for a number of reasons. If abuse charges are to suceed the victims need to be doing something about it.

Ray is cool. Bill needs a holiday.

ISP

jst2laws

DJ,

By Bill making the above statements, it seems that it is NOT simply that a high profile xjw will not get on the bandwagon, as you put it.
I don't know who is right and who is wrong in this discrepancy. I do see that Bill feels that Ray Currently supports the wt policy. In another statement here, Bill said that HE spoke to him, personally.

Yes, and I too have spoken with him personally and simply got the impression as stated previously:

I have not heard him say anything that suggests he supports the WT policies of not reporting criminals to the authorities or neglecting to get molestation victims needed protection and counseling. YES, as expected he will not joining in support of this movement. That does not mean he has no concern for victims of molestation.

I am not going to get into a credibility war with anyone here. I simply feel obligated to state what I know as well as my objection to calling into question the integrity of good people.

With regard to Bill's opinion about Ray covering up something.......hmmm, it would be truly horrible to learn that Ray may be a silentlamb because of his Uncle Freddy. Who the heck knows anymore? I sure hope not.

And that is what is wrong with this entire line of discussion. A tragedy has occurred when we find ourselves justified in speculation like this when simply expressing the "hmmm" possibilities send the mind of people off into the dark world and suspicion and doubts.

We should not even be having this discussion in my opinion. As others have said we should just

LEAVE THE MAN ALONE.

Jst2laws

IslandWoman

Bill Bowen,

Please answer the questions put to you by Valis and others on this thread. It is important, do not discount us please.

IW

VeniceIT

I also would like to remind everyone that 'Bill Bowen' and 'Silentlambs' are NOT synonomous!!!!

Sure Bill is the spokes person, and the main person we think of, but there are MANY other people behind teh scenes including his family that have sacrificed a lot. There are MANY victims that have been helped and contacted.

You might not like Bill and his aggressive attitude and you don't have to , but you do have to realise that he has gotten RESULTS. This issue of child abuse has been known for years. Many exjw's had done research and had documentation but nothing was ever able to be done. In 1 1/2 years Bill and the rest of the Silentlambs team have been on Local news programs, Dateline, Panorama, in the NY Times, in Chrisitanity Today, and countless other newspaper articles around the country. NOTHING like this has EVER happend in the exjw comminity and I think we need to realise that it takes a very agressive person to acomplish this.

So you don't like him SO WHAT!!!! Look how many lawsuits are being filed, look how many victims, over 5,000 that have come forward in ONE year, that no longer belive they're alone!!!!

You don't like what he has to say about Ray or a few others, and mayeb he shoudln't have said it or even feel it, but he's only a man and that's his opionion. In this thread we have 4 pages of opinions, why can't he voice his?

He's perhaps putting down a few people but if we look at the scales there are over 5,000 that are no longer alone. And hundreds yes HUNDREDS have been able to put together law suits and other events that HAVE affected many here. Look how many victimes have spoken out over the past year, they wouldn't have done that without Bill and Silentlambs. And quite frankly Slentlambs would not be here without Bill, you must take the good with the bad (not saying that Bill is bad just an expression)

MANY people have left or finally decided to leave after watching Dateline, and looking into it. Let's not cut a fellow human down for one or two misteps when they've put so much into something and done SOOOO MUCH for SO MANY people. Let's keep a balance here.

Ven

RevMalk

Wow, I don't know what to say. I have no idea who's right or wrong. I have no idea what Ray has said concerning silentlambs or the WT policy, but whatever it was, it was in private, hearsay even (unless he told Bill this himself, but then it's still hearsay to us). Is it possible he agrees with the policy.....sure anything is possible. But I think it not wise to slam a guy in a public forum like this. The last big silentlambs controversy, some of us, in support of Bill suggested that if someone had a problem with him (Bill) or his tactics, perhaps they should contact him in private. I think the same should go for anyone including Ray. Besides that fact, to be a good leader you must have the balls to make controversial statements, but with the balance and level headedness to know when not to. For the silentlambs cause, it does not matter what Ray Franz thinks or says (unless he says them publicly).
A knaves religion is always the rottenest thing about him." John Ruskin, 19th-century British critic and author

Edited by - Revmalk on 9 October 2002 19:48:51

AGuest

For the "life" of me, I don't know why I opened this thread, but...

May you all have peace... and may I say that to restrict 'bothering' one 'old man' because he is in his 80's, while calling for justice from several other old... and even older men... is hypocritical. Either age has NOTHING to do with it... or everything. You can't have it both ways, dear ones.

Otherwise, I have no opinion... nor have I been given one... regarding either gentlemen with regard to this matter. Just wanted to point out the... 'two scales' that some of you seem to have missed.

Again, I bid you peace!

A slave of Christ,

SJ

VeniceIT

Silentlambs is not wrong, and they have the documentation, and witnesses to prove that, I don't see how Ray could say such a thing and have any credibility.

We all know the WTS is a Multi-million $$$ corperation, do you think ANY of these press agents Dateline, NY times, CNN would even touch them if they didn't know and see proof that Silentlambs is correct? There is NO WAY they would open themselves up to those kinds of lawsuits to say nothing of the reputible lawyers that have taken on the cases.

Ray would have no basis to say they're wrong, I don't see this as a likely option, Besides what kind of person would risk the lives of thousands of victims, and thousands more just because some guy pissed you off? Not a person I would respect or would gain credibility, I don't see Ray doing this.

You may not like Silentlambs aproach, I know Ray doesn't but you have to look at the results. The PROGRESS Silentlambs has made in 1 1/2 years is AMAZING, simply amazing. Sure people might get upset or offended or feel stepped on, but I'm not going to stop supporting something that has done so much good, and has SOO MUCH potential just because I don't like the person running it or I don't like his aproach. It takes guts and it takes contraversy and that's what Bill has, even though he might be kind of rough around the edges.

Ven

Mulan

I have read two posts, in two threads, ( http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=38314&site=3 ) insinuating that Bill made comments negative about Reinhard Lengtat, and Silentlambs. I didn't read those comments, but would like to see them. If anyone has the link, please post it or email it to me.

In Reinhard's defense, I will say that in the beginning he was not in favor of the silentlambs crusade, but he has changed his mind and thinks that the TV shows (people arranged it so he could watch them, since he doesn't have a TV) were well done, and he approves now because they really are getting results. I think he had fears, at first, that it would be very different than it has turned out to be.

To my knowledge, Bill Bowen has not met Reinhard, nor has he talked to him, but he has only heard about him, and possibly his original negative comments.

This "flame war" has gotten out of hand. I think everyone is jumping to conclusions and saying things they will regret later.

Edited by - mulan on 9 October 2002 18:52:35

Ray Franz Key Witness?!

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