Kangaroos and the Flood

by Zechariah 66 Replies latest jw friends

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  rem

  Do you deny the evidence that from the descendants of Noah the nations spread out over the earth

  Yes, I do deny that any such evidence exists. Prove it.

  rem
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  Analysis

  Zechariah said

  "I don't think there is any doubt about what the Bible teaches about the flood. Its whether we believe it or not. Do you deny the evidence that from the descendants of Noah the nations spread out over the earth. Just like the scriptures say."

  Yes in your defense modern science with their improved understanding of DNA has proved that all of mankind came from one Modern Woman. That does not prove your point on the flood, but only supports your point.

  Zechariah said

  "I am well aware of the different uses of the word "world" in the Bible. That is not what we're faced with here."

  According to you that is not what we are faced with here.

  Did you not state in another thread, that no change in DNA was ever beneficial? And here on this thread you claim that all the diversity of the animal kingdom came from your 150 to 200 kinds? In only 4,000 years? If you really believe that, then you have already accepted the concept of evolution. And I might say you believe it happens at a much faster pace then even the most ardent supporters of evolution.

  Five years ago I too was convinced that the Bible was correct concerning the accounts of creation and the flood. I like you attempted to twist things around to convince myself of that fact. Even now I believe that the flood account is based on some major event in the pre-history of man. Science has proved that civilizations existed, where today we find only water. But that does not prove a global flood.

  Think about what you believe.

  Explain the Ice Age with the Bible and then advise me how that goes with Genesis the second chapter about rain?

  Explain the natural killers like sharks by the Bible

  Explain how Civilizations existed prior to the flood in such diverse locations as Australia and the Americas. Did God have Noah preach to them so that they could repent?

  Edited by - Analysis on 12 November 2002 15:10:33

  Edited by - Analysis on 12 November 2002 15:11:54
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  Buster

  Don't we all remember some of the other rationalizations:

  • God's spirit could have sent all the animals into hibernation to minimize the food they needed
  • The force of the flood was what actually broke up the original single land mass and caused the various continents to split, thereby isolating some species.

  Of course it is all bunk. If you want to believe that God wrote the bible, then try to imagine his chuckling at the notion that some people still take it as actual fact - word for word. It is just a story about how God cleans his people. He would have excused the ignorance of earlier times. But he's gotta be lifting a heavenly eyebrow at literalists of today.

  Scientific thought was devised as the means to show that in a vacuum, heavier objects do not fall faster that lighter ones. It is merely a series of extensions to realize that one guy and a few sons could not have done what some credit them with.
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  Zechariah

  Analysis,

  I don't look for trouble. I don't search for reasons to disbelieve. My defense of the Bible on certain things is not for the benefit of sceptics. Rather it is for those who want to believe but who have been given some measure of doubt by unbelievers.

  You are distorting things I have said. Never did I say that there has been no good changes in DNA. Diversity within kinds due to cross-breeding is not evolution. It is not changes due a totally random, unintelligent, impersonal yet totally magical evolutionary God.

  It is not due to a series of positive mutations. What I did say was that there are no beneficial mutations. No mutations takes place in cross-breeding just allowable diversity placed there by the creator.

  All those questions you are asking are interesting side points I to have addressed in past posts.

  Carnivorous animals are all appropriately part of Gods design.

  I am not a scientist but I have satisfied myself that there are many who attest to such a flood as described in the Bible would have cause Ice age conditions.

  You had so little faith that you are willing to abandon belief just because tough questions are raised. Trust in God on these occasion will lead you to satisfactory answers.

  It is reasonable to suspect the entire earth was populated to a great extent with great technology that matched or surpassed that of modern day. The reasons are numerous to believe this.

  The Bible tells of transformed angels marrying the daughters of men and giving birth to supernatural sons who became fame ones in the earth. It is no doubt these were extraordinary not only in size but in but in intelligence. They no doubt ruled in most places and lived far beyong the normal lifespan of true humans.

  It is possible this expanding phenomenon of angels taking over in a world God intended for mortal men was the thing that prompted the destruction that would wipe out the the perverted offspring of the Gods (wicked angels).

  The ability the fallen angels had of crossbreeding together with their perverse nature to lower themselves outside their glorious station would no doubt extend itself to the animal kingdom.

  There is ancient legends of the Gods having sex with animals and fathering crossbreed offspring which were half man and half beast. Von Daniken with his Chariots of The Gods gives much support to visitors from the stars which is what the fallen angels would have appeared to be.

  Let God be found true though every man a liar.

  Whether Noah was obligated to preach to them and warn them all I don't know but I would rather doubt it. If he was I am sure God provided him with a way to fulfill his requirement.

  Zechariah
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  rem

  Wow, dude, you are totally cookoo.

  rem
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  Crazy151drinker

  Zech,

  Did noah have some huge Fish tank in the Ark??? Now all the sea creatures would have been ok, but all of the freshwater fish would have had to go somewhere. Lets not forget the frogs and salamanders, crawfish, freshwater snails, water moccacins, etc..etc....................oh and beavers......

  No where in the Bible does it say that Noah's decendents took the animals with them to different parts of the world. You are trying to infer your beliefs because it doesnt add up.

  I am a firm beliver in Christ, but the bible should not be taken so liberally. Its been changed over and over again for thousands of years.

  Im surprised that the termites or carpenter ants didnt chew up his boat.........
• 

  JosephMalik

  Joseph,

  Is this all you needed?

  Genesis 6:17
  I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.

  Zechariah,

  I know all that but the earth under discussion does not involve the entire planet. This discussion only involves the location where such men lived which was only a small area as men just began to multiply in numbers. So look at the texts again. This is what you should see:

  6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

  This is the context for the texts you use. This is also not very many people is it? They just began to multiply when these things occurred. This would put them within a few miles of each other not thousands of miles or across continents. How far do you think they would have migrated in just a hundred or so years? After all they were not in a race to cover the planet and were simply spreading out naturally.

  6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. {every: or, the whole imagination: the Hebrew word signifieth not only the imagination, but also the purposes and desires} {continually: Heb. every day} 6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

  So once again where is the proof that the entire planet was engulfed?

  Genesis 10:32
  These are the clans of Noah's sons, according to their lines of descent, within their nations. From these the nations spread out over the earth after the flood.

  What about such nations. How far did they spread in 200 or 300 years after the flood? Not very far since we have a record of them in scripture and know how much of the earth is involved. The total population of the earth in Abraham's time was a estimated to be a very low number even in WT literature.

  People living on it and the animals around them died. Sure! They lived on the earth, as stated that is true. The flood engulfed all of them, true again. But only this earth the whole earth under discussion where such man lived and migrated for about 100 or so years was involved. The scriptures do not say the entire planet was covered. The context here is the same as the context in the word world which I already discussed. And this is exactly why I brought this point out. You see the problem is not with scripture. The problem is with mans distorted view of what it teaches.

  Joseph
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  Zechariah

  Joseph,
  You say the problem is with men distorting the Bible.

  There is no gray area about the scriptres I quoted. They beyond a doubt were talking about a global flood. Your reasoning abilities are seriously lacking if you don't believe the earth was fully populated by the time of the flood.
  I don't know wat you mean by only a few hndred years when it was close to two thousand years that passed till the time of the flood.
  You had men that lived upwards of nearly 969 years old who had multiple wives concieving for near as long as they lived.

  Plus you had fallen angels and their supernatural offspring capable of living even longer. Each one of such men were capable of fathering a whole city of people by the time of the flood.

  If anybody views what the Bible says as beyond reason he should just call the Bible untrue and not accuse believers of distorting what it says.

  I am not a believer that everything the Bible says is to be taken literally. But things I can with desire rationalize as true I believe. There is many things I believe are allegorical like the Tower Of Babel for many reasons.

  I would not have any problem as well if the evidence was not there in accepting the Flood as allegorical. The scientists and science I ascribe to is that which supports the literal truth of the Biblical account.

  What you said about the sons of Noah spreading out over the earth you are correct on. The Bible was not implying that at the time of that scriptures writing the earth was fully populated. It only indicated that the process of fully populating the earth had begun.
  It was not the same thing said about the earth prior to the flood.
  Zechariah
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  Earnest

  Zechariah:

  I would be interested to know whether you find the comments at http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html helpful in your search fo truth.

  Earnest
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  JosephMalik

  There is no gray area about the scriptures I quoted. They beyond a doubt were talking about a global flood.

  Zechariah,

  Two Thousand years you say? How do you know? The verse that sets the context for this event does not agree. It is describing a short period of time during the days of Noah that fits this description shown:

  :1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

  And this word earth that you insist proves that the entire planet was populated simply means:

  1) ground, land

  1a) ground (as general, tilled, yielding sustenance)

  1b) piece of ground, a specific plot of land

  1c) earth substance (for building or constructing)

  1d) ground as earths visible surface

  1e) land, territory, country

  1f) whole inhabited earth

  1g) city in Naphtali

  So if only a few hundred miles are inhabited, that is all the earth. Or simply the territory or specific plot of land on which the event takes place represents all the earth. So where is your proof? What makes you think the long lives that men lived includes long periods of childbearing as well with a large population boom? Noah lived about 600 years before the flood and had only three sons during all that time. Now that is a fact. So when they entered into the ark his entire family consisted of just a few people and no children. No population boom as you suggest.

  Genesis 7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

  Men only began to multiply in fact during the time under discussion as shown by the text. Now this is proof but what you say is not. So how do you arrive at your conclusions? So far all you offer is your insistence not proofs that do not even agree with the meanings of the words used for such proof.

  Then you say: Your reasoning abilities are seriously lacking if you don't believe the earth was fully populated by the time of the flood.

  Attack me? Well ok go ahead that is not a problem but you must prove your point. What was the population of the earth during the flood? Do you know the answer and how exactly did you derive your figures? Were is your proof that the planet was inhabited as you say here?

  Now I found this comment of yours interesting: Plus you had fallen angels and their supernatural offspring capable of living even longer. Each one of such men were capable of fathering a whole city of people by the time of the flood.

  What scripture did you get this from or did you make it up yourself? After all opinions do not count in such discussions since everyone has one. And what makes you think that this makes any difference? Could not such cities be in the same general area? All this means nothing so far.

  And look at this comment of yours where you agree with my lack of reasoning abilities: What you said about the sons of Noah spreading out over the earth you are correct on. The Bible was not implying that at the time of that scriptures writing the earth was fully populated. It only indicated that the process of fully populating the earth had begun. It was not the same thing said about the earth prior to the flood.

  Well the scripture that I used above does not agree. It said: And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, which scriptural fact does not support your conclusion. So how did you arrive at your statement? Do you have scriptural proof to prove it or is it simply a guess on your part that you cannot support by facts? Please provide the facts, the proofs needed to support your statements and show them clearly so that we do not have to assume what you mean.

  Joseph

  Edited by - JosephMalik on 13 November 2002 1:5:48