Kangaroos and the Flood

by Zechariah 66 Replies latest jw friends

Crazy151drinker

Zech,
The proof of God's existence is called FAITH.
Thats it.
A collection of stories doesnt prove a @%# thing.
larc

Zech, I wouldn't say that you are intellectually dishonest, nor would I say that those who disagree with you are intellectually dishonest. People simply come to different conclusions. We are all "looking through a glass darkly" (I Cor. 13), and we do the best we know how. I don't think a God would condemn us, even if we didn't believe in him, because of our limitations.
Trauma_Hound

"All you guys that make this kind of statement are just jealous. How many of you have dead or alive had their writings internationally published?"
Zak your an idiot, you don't know what I've done. I have been on tv, I had my own tv spot for awhile. I've done graphics for movies. So I'm not jelouse of anyone, actually I'm jelouse of sky divers, because I haven't done that yet. I consider Stephen King much better fiction, then the bible.
Earnest

Moral and physical truth may partake of a common essence, but their foundations are independent and have not one common element. - Adam Sedgwick, 1831, Proceedings of the Geological Society of London, p. 314

If you believe the bible to contain moral truth you do not do so because of its statements on geology, cosmology or any other science. If you believe the physical evidence of flooding in Mesopotamia you do not do so because the bible has a record of a flood. The bible is not a book of science, and science should not involve faith. The two are not reliant on each other and any attempt to make them so will inevitably be disappointed.
Earnest
LoneWolf

larc --- I've read Letters to Earth. It's excellent, and well worth looking into. I recommend it.
To all --- I've seen many references to the theory that the Bible's account of the Flood is based on the Babylonian fables, etc., and I realize that many scholars teach that. However, I strongly feel that they are overlooking one major point. In comparing the two accounts, it soon becomes apparent that they are told from two vastly different viewpoints with animosity toward the other side being quite evident in the Babylonian version.
This is especially true in one account I have here at home, in which the gods Bel and Ninip chew out the god Elu for having caused the flood. Rather than having one taken from the other, comparing the accounts lends credance to the idea that they were both written independently of the other, yet of the same event.
Indeed, comparing the two gives one an excellent lesson on the subterfuge Satan used at that time. Of course, one needs to realize that the Bablyonians had their own names for the various characters, just as they had for Daniel and the three boys. However, the accounts are so similar in the specifics described that it leaves no doubt that it is the same event.
If anyone is interested, I'd be happy to post parts of that account here. I say parts, as this account is a highly expanded telling of the Flood, with a great amount of detail included that is not in the Bible. It's lengthy.
LoneWolf
Analysis

Joseph
When I said; "It seems that you are the one that abandoned a belief with just some tough questions; In only a matter of just a few days." To Zechariah, it was because is claimed I had lost my faith over simply touch questions. I wanted to point out to him that he was capable of the same.
I for one have found that the more I study the scriptures the more unanswered questions I have. So I too am looking to grow. I however am driven by intellectually honesty.
To Zechariah
First you dont know what my objective is nor yet what I believe. I enjoy debating and will join in on both sides of an issue if I think that will result in revising my own belief system or thought process.
For you to state:
"I am a man of faith. I have no obligation to be intellectually honest."
This just confirms what I have already seen from you; which are that you will go to any length to support your perceived truth. The Bible states God are truth. I can not separate truth from intellectual honesty. You are just like the religious leaders who condemned Galileo. The Bible doesnt teach that Earth is the center of the universe, but they had their preconceived belief and they used intellectual dishonesty to condemn those whose beliefs were different then their current worldview or beliefs.
The Bible does not say how God created the universe, earth, man or the animals. It just states that he did create them. Yet you have a preconceived view and you condemn me when I ask simple questions.
You stated:
"I am not a believer that everything the Bible says is to be taken literally."
So I ask again:
Who decides what is literal and what is not? Or is it up to each individual person to make those determinations themselves and in the end it is between them and God. Is God going to condemn me if I were to make a mistake in that determination? Am I condemned if I was raised in a part of the World that did not have access to the Bible?
None of these questions show any contempt for God. But, they are valid topics for seeking the God of Truth. Are you telling me that if God wanted to, that he could not have used evolution as his way of creating mankind? Or that during his creation he decided that some of his creations would survive down to our day while others had already served the purpose they were created for so that he no longer needed them? Or that he is not powerful or resourceful enough that he could not make improvements to his early creations? Could he have used the Big Bang to create the Universe?
Just my two cents, I could be wrong. The Truth is Out there!
City Fan

I'm with Pseudo on this. I think the bible speaks for itself. I particularly like the consistency of the flood account!
Two different dates for the appearance of mountains after the flood:
Ch8 v4: and in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, the ark came to rest upon the mountains of Ar'arat.
Ch8 v5: And the waters continued to abate until the tenth month; in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, the tops of the mountains were seen.
Two different dates for the waters to be dried off the earth.
Ch8 v13: In the six hundred and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried from off the earth; and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and behold, the face of the ground was dry.
Ch8 v14: In the second month, on the twenty-seventh day of the month, the earth was dry.
One more anomaly, Genesis 7 verse 11 gives the start of the flood:
In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
According to the account after 40 days and nights Noah sets free a dove to see if the water has subsided. When it returns with nothing he waits 7 more days and sets it free again. It then returns with a fresh olive leaf so Noah knows the waters have subsided (ch8 v6-11). This gives 47 days that the waters were on the earth. This conflicts with Chapter 7 verse 24 and Chapter 8 verse 3 which give 150 days until the waters abated.
Add to this the numerous repetitions in the account and the fact that some verses use Elohim and some use Yahweh for God then you can see that this story has been pieced together from two separate legends.
City 3 United 1
Zechariah

Analysis,
This just confirms what I have already seen from you; which are that you will go to any length to support your perceived truth. The Bible states God are truth. I can not separate truth from intellectual honesty.
It is for certain you are not ever going to be able to understand this because of your love affair with the ego (mind/intellect). You like most all unbelievers do not recognize the Godforce within you and therefore will never tap it.
Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for. The power in it is because it defies reason. Intellect is its enemy. It is why I have arrived at these following principles to live by. First is only to believe that which benefis me.
Most things the intellect motivates you to believe are negative. It for most people is natural to think in negative ways. It takes great determination to think in ways that benefit us. Always one should count his blessings rather than his troubles. One should always believe he capable of doing and achieving that which is important for him. One should always trust in God to combat fear and to have a sense of security.
This ability is incredibly important. A case in point is the Oprah show yesterday. It had two segments which highlighted women that combatted and confronted their worse fears or phobias. One woman was afraid of heights but when trained and assisted to believe everything was safe she scaled down the side of a skyscraper. Another woman was afraid of closed places. She crawled through a long, dark maze they created which was extremely liberating for her to have seen the light at the end of the tunnel. The point of all this is that the key to successfully dealing with ones fears is to think in ways or make yourself believe you are safe. Being realistic and following the intellect doesnt help at all. Doing that is the very reason for ones fears in the first place.
People that say be realistic are only encouraging pessimism. There is no benefit in thinking pessimistic and it should be each man obligation to force themselves to think optimistically. That is not ignoring facts. It is merely casting the event in the best possible light.
It is making the best of all situations. To feel obligated to the intellect puts us on a road to failure.
You are just like the religious leaders who condemned Galileo. The Bible doesnt teach that Earth is the center of the universe, but they had their preconceived belief and they used intellectual dishonesty to condemn those whose beliefs were different then their current worldview or beliefs. The Bible does not say how God created the universe, earth, man or the animals. It just states that he did create them. Yet you have a preconceived view and you condemn me when I ask simple questions. You stated: "I am not a believer that everything the Bible says is to be taken literally."
Saying you are wrong about something is not condemnation. Don't be so melodramatic.
I am not condemning anybody. You believe what you want and accept the blessings or maledictions that come with that belief.
I for certain do not believe everything in the Bible is to be taken literally. But I will not concede it has other meaning unless it is clearly evident it could not be literally true. If I have any problem rectifying something the Bible says as being literally true then I choose to believe that I wish and which benefits me. It is foolish and defeatist to think in other way.
I believe nobody dies until he gives up on life. I personally believe I cannot die until my mission in life is accomplished. I believe the angels protect me and often perform miracles of salvation on my behalf. I remember years ago while working at nights I would often on the drive home be so tired
I would often arrive home having no idea how I got there. After a number of occasions I realized the angels were taking over and driving me home. From that point on I didn't ever worry about the possibilty of fallng asleep as I knew the angels were protecting me. I would on these occasions as I knew the angels would drive for me.
I don't think it the slightest bit important that you think evolution is the means that God created the earth or that even the belief man hatched from a egg, etc. As long as you realize the God is our creator and the Most High in all the earth God is satisfied. All the other stuff is mute. That doesn't mean I don't have strong opinions on the subject and am happy to debate them when invited.
I aso do not believe it necessary to believe in God to also believe in the inspiration of the Bible. God is God under whatever name one calls him. The gift that comes from believing God is the Holy Spirit which teaches us all that is important we know. This includes the appreciation of the Bibles inspiration.. It however is the reward and not the requirement for a right relationship with God.

I just watched the movie The First Knight with Richard Gere. It was a story about Sir Lancelot, King Arthur and Camelot. It clearly emphasizes the power of faith. The mightiest do not always win. If you fight for right and believe God is on your side you will prevail despite what the "intellect" tells you.
The accusation of intellectual dishonesty used by unbelievers is misused as much much as apostate is by JWs. I understand what I am being accused of from the unbelievers perspective and from that perspective only I am guilty.
I have no guilt about it. I therefore wear the label proudly because in reality it is I that am the one being truly intelligently honest. You say that you like to debate different points of view other than your real beliefs. You get offended when someone is fooled by your facade and takes you at your word and judges you accordingly.
Do you not regard that as intellectual dishonesty. You would attempt to prove a contrary viewpoint to your actual belief using the same evidence which looked at from a different perspective prove the opposing viewpoint. If the truth is so unimportant you can do that who is it that is intellectually dishonest, you or me. I would say that correctly intellectual dishonesty is not engaging in negative thinking but believing and proclaiming only that you really believe no matter what.
There is only one thing that is now a sin before God. All other things once condemned by law has been blanketly forgiven. Failure to believe in the ransom sacrafice (God) is the only sin left as it is the unforgivable sin tht the ransom can't cover.This is the one sin that human weakness is no excuse for.
God never condemns men. Men only condemn themselves by their rejecting the ransom sacrafice (God). Disconnection from God is spiritual death.
Zechariah
rem

This Zech guy is obviously off his rocker. Why even waste any time discussing anything with such an irrational, anti-intellectual, and confessed intellectually dishonest looney-tunes?
rem
Zechariah

REM,
Did you say something?
(Dont bother answering)
Zechariah

Kangaroos and the Flood

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