The Trinity

by meadow77 740 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • herk
    herk

    Dakota,

    You wrote,

    Herk, the problem you are having is that you place a much more restrictive sense on the word worship (proskuneo) than the original authors did long ago.

    Are you sure you meant that for me? That is precisely my argument as well as yours. It's the Trinitarians who see the Bible words in only a restrictive sense. I can't think of any example up above where I've hinted that the Bible terms for "worship" mean "worship," nothing less and nothing more. I've shown that Daniel received worship, for example, but it wasn't in the restrictive sense as other translations clearly show. It was homage, deep respect - not actual worship - that Daniel received from Nebuchadnezzar.

    Herk

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    Herk, I see now that I should believe that the KJV is a bad translation (although it has never been faulted) simply because you say it is.
    I should believe that Scripture doesn't say that "God was manifest in the flesh" simply because you and some dorkus scholar whom I've never heard of said so. I see the light now!

  • DakotaRed
    DakotaRed

    My apologies, Herk, I misread. *hangs aging head in shame*

    Lew W

  • DakotaRed
    DakotaRed

    SC, I always find it amazing that scholars are often who trinitarians quote. But, when one disagrees with their point of view, he is automatically labeled a "dorkus scholar." Even if I disagree with a scholars view point, something even us simple working folk have the right to do, I still show respect for their efforts in education.

    "Trinitarian dogma is one of the great enigmas of our time. The fact that it defies both conventional logic and rational explanation does not seem to diminish the Trinitarians desire to protect at all costs his complex theological formula. We are puzzled at the agitation that is created when the Trinity is questioned. This seems to point to a lack of confidence in what is claimed to be the unquestionable party line of virtually all Christian ministers. The common branding of all objectors as unbelievers does nothing to reassure us." The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity's Self Inflicted Wound, 1998, Anthony F. Buzzard, Charles F. Hunting, International Scholars Publications

    Your labeling of scholars you disagree with as "dorkus scholars" is insulting and highly inflammatory, but expected and not surprising. I have yet to meet a trinitarian that can hold a discussion for long that challenges their doctrine, that doesn't resort to such statements.

    Lew W

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Jesus said that the ONLY ONE who had the right to have the Title "Good" was GOD.

    Then, later, Jesus claims the Title "Good" for Himself.

    Undisfellowshipped,

    Which proves nothing. Why? Because such titles and expressions are shared in scripture but the context in which they are used are vastly different. Absolute use praising the Father is not the same as general use in an entirely different context. This is also true of the term GOD which can be used to describe the Almighty or Humans in Authority. And this is also why scripture cannot be rolled out en mass as many do here because each verse has a context or its own setting which alters the meaning or application of words considerably. Using your method of interpretation then Good men are also part of your Deity as only such Deity can be called good as you state.

    Titus 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; {men: or, things}

    Now if you disagree with such use regarding such good men then your application of Good Shepherd is just as meaningless as shown by this text. Such arguments are really silly since we are discussing the true nature of God, something easily explained. Yet Trinitarians must use word matches such as this one since they cannot provide any clear text on the subject. And they must disregard texts that refute Trinitarian views.

    The I AM argument is another example. In the Septuagint the Greek text is rendered as I AM the BEING a fact well know to the Jews in Jesus day. Yet in John our Lord simply said I am, and this is even translated I am in the KJV (small letters) a common expression not related to the Hebrew text in Exodus in any way. Any comparison to the Greek text is avoided naturally. And when this is shown to be true they continue to use this point over and over never correcting such error hoping to find someone else to dupe with this theology or argument.

    Joseph

    Edited by - JosephMalik on 29 November 2002 7:18:9

  • Navigator
    Navigator

    I think that Swedish Chef, having been blown out of the water on his Trinity doctrine, is trying to start a flame war on the KJV accuracy. Actually, the KJV was an excellent translation for its day, but that day was almost 400 years ago. A great deal has been learned since then. Many more and earlier manuscripts are now known that were not available to the KJV scholars. This has allowed the pin pointing of numerous errors in the KJV.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    "God was manifest in the flesh" simply because you and some dorkus scholar whom I've never heard of said so. I see the light now!

    SwedishChef ,

    Here is another example of so what? Makes no difference. John made it clear in John 1:1 and other verses that Jesus is our God. Since He is our creator calling Him God is not a problem. Now if the text said: The Father was manifest in the flesh, or even The True God was manifest in the flesh, then you would have an argument you can use. But to say that God was manifest in the flesh proves nothing of the sort since such use of the word God in regard to others is perfectly acceptable as already shown in this thread.

    Joseph

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    Navigator, It has been my experience never to take a JW's word for anything.

  • DakotaRed
    DakotaRed

    I agree, Navigator. Word meanings change with time and when reading an older document, we must make every effort to use the sense of the authors words at the time it was written, not place modern meanings to older words. Doing the latter dilutes their words and gives us a false view as to their original intent.

    Lew W

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    Dakota, it is becoming more and more apparent to me that you have no grasp of the Scripture at all. I give you a verse that says Jehovah sends Jehovah to dwell among his people, you all you do is say it's "an excellent example of polytheism." That kind of left me with a: "that's nice, but where's your response to the verse?"
    Now I don't know about you, but if Jehovah sent Jesus the Messiah to dwell among His people, and in this prophecy about the Messiah, Jehovah sends Jehovah to dwell among his people, I think it's saying that the Messiah is Jehovah! It's pretty much common sense. But go on! Keep twisting and avoiding the Scripture. I find that you are very sly in avoiding to actually address that passage in Isaiah.
    You also seem to have many misconceptions about Trinitarians. You seem to think we believe in three Gods. Trinitarians believe in ONE sovereign God, however, He exists as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That's Biblical teaching, you can find it many places all throughout the Bible.
    It's not a "secret" doctrine, because its so easily found. But it is a mystery (1Timothy 3:16).
    1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God...they are spiritually discerned."
    The most important thing for someone to do is become saved.
    John 3:18 "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
    Romans 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
    Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
    If you believe on the name of the Son of God, and accept Him as your Lord and savior, then you will become born again and are one of God's children.
    John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"
    God will preserve you. 2 Timothy 4:18: "And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

    After you have become saved...
    Acts 1:8a "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:"
    Romans 8:14 "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."
    ...The Spririt leads someone in Scripture after they are saved, for the discernment is lifted. Most posting messages in here are not saved, and therefore are spiritually discerned.

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